Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
+6
CluelessKitty
Brenda
survivor
nursebeth
HeelerLady
Richard
10 posters
Page 1 of 1
Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
Back in the Dark Ages, I gathered all the scraps of material from the dresses and outfits my Mom made for my daughter and the next cousin in line. Over 20 years, I hand pieced and hand quilted a throw for my Mom - she adores it.
When Steve died, I saved his shirts instead of giving them away. All of them, plus a few of mine, are now 4" squares - a stack over 2' tall of four inch squares.
OK, so I decided on the start of design and laid it out. So far so good. Now, how to piece it together? It took me twenty years for my Mom's quilt ... I am not sure I have 20 years left to hand quilt a piece ... so I decided to put the top of the quilt together on the sewing machine and then hand quilt. Good thinking, eh? Wrong!
I hate sewing machines. Piecing together a row of 13 4" squares ought to take a few minutes. Wrong. In every row so far, the sewing machine goes bonkers on at least, at least, one 4" seam. The bobbin throws up huge wastes of thread, the needle gets unthreaded, or there is operator error - OK, so mechanics is not my best feature.
Arrrggghhh! I have pieced together a total of 5 rows out of 12 - and that is just the rows and just for the center design of the quilt! At this rate, I won't be finished for 20 years! Aaarrrggghhh! So frustrating.
I miss the QUIET and peace of the hand sewing. Throw a favorite DVD and sit and sew - so peaceful. But with a sewing machine, oh no! Noise and lights and things going whir in the night. Oh well, stronger seams, I guess - I doubled seamed my first top, but still. And when the machine actually works, it is a dream.
And it is NOT the machine. When my daughter was here in March, she pieced and quilted a baby quilt made out of my roommates shirts for his next grandchild. No problems for her. I can only blame myself - but I have developed a real and obstructive attitude about sewing machines. Lawn mowers too - can't get mine to work! Darn this new technology! Give me the old push mowers and a teenager to push it. And hand sewing. But in for an ounce, in for a pound. Let me get back to the beast.
When Steve died, I saved his shirts instead of giving them away. All of them, plus a few of mine, are now 4" squares - a stack over 2' tall of four inch squares.
OK, so I decided on the start of design and laid it out. So far so good. Now, how to piece it together? It took me twenty years for my Mom's quilt ... I am not sure I have 20 years left to hand quilt a piece ... so I decided to put the top of the quilt together on the sewing machine and then hand quilt. Good thinking, eh? Wrong!
I hate sewing machines. Piecing together a row of 13 4" squares ought to take a few minutes. Wrong. In every row so far, the sewing machine goes bonkers on at least, at least, one 4" seam. The bobbin throws up huge wastes of thread, the needle gets unthreaded, or there is operator error - OK, so mechanics is not my best feature.
Arrrggghhh! I have pieced together a total of 5 rows out of 12 - and that is just the rows and just for the center design of the quilt! At this rate, I won't be finished for 20 years! Aaarrrggghhh! So frustrating.
I miss the QUIET and peace of the hand sewing. Throw a favorite DVD and sit and sew - so peaceful. But with a sewing machine, oh no! Noise and lights and things going whir in the night. Oh well, stronger seams, I guess - I doubled seamed my first top, but still. And when the machine actually works, it is a dream.
And it is NOT the machine. When my daughter was here in March, she pieced and quilted a baby quilt made out of my roommates shirts for his next grandchild. No problems for her. I can only blame myself - but I have developed a real and obstructive attitude about sewing machines. Lawn mowers too - can't get mine to work! Darn this new technology! Give me the old push mowers and a teenager to push it. And hand sewing. But in for an ounce, in for a pound. Let me get back to the beast.
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
Richard,
From one sewer to another. A few tips.
1. Make sure the bobbin is threaded correctly (yes this is obvious but some machines are temperamental about it being just so)
2. Hold your threads for the first 3 or 4 stitches. My machine - this is a requirement or the bobbin balls up. I love my machine (it was my grandmothers) but it's got a fussy side.
3. Make sure you cut your threads long (material and what's left on the machine) - too short and things unthread themselves.
Most machines are not my friend. I had to call my brother this week. He fixed my lawnmower for me and I couldn't get the blamed thing to start. He comes, gives it a pull and it starts. However, the serger is my B*&^%. That puppy follows orders.
Remember, deep breath. This is supposed to be relaxing not a pain in the a$$.
Becky
From one sewer to another. A few tips.
1. Make sure the bobbin is threaded correctly (yes this is obvious but some machines are temperamental about it being just so)
2. Hold your threads for the first 3 or 4 stitches. My machine - this is a requirement or the bobbin balls up. I love my machine (it was my grandmothers) but it's got a fussy side.
3. Make sure you cut your threads long (material and what's left on the machine) - too short and things unthread themselves.
Most machines are not my friend. I had to call my brother this week. He fixed my lawnmower for me and I couldn't get the blamed thing to start. He comes, gives it a pull and it starts. However, the serger is my B*&^%. That puppy follows orders.
Remember, deep breath. This is supposed to be relaxing not a pain in the a$$.
Becky
HeelerLady- Posts : 1122
Join date : 2010-02-04
Age : 43
Location : Wisconsin
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
I am terrified of a sewing machine!! I can totally see my fingers getting sucked under that wicked needle.
And I can't sew a button on for $hit
And I can't sew a button on for $hit
nursebeth- Posts : 91
Join date : 2009-12-07
Age : 55
Location : KY
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
How different we all are! I HATE hand sewing. I have some I am going to do this evening.
I love my machines. I have seven of them!
Richard, it really sounds to me like you are missing the uptake lever part of the times. It is easy for it to come unthreaded on a lot of machines.
A couple of points....
Like was said above cut long tails on threads. The other thing is don't try to pull the thread through w/ the presser foot down. When the foot is down the tension plates are engaged. By pulling through you screw up the tension. Also, never pull thread out from the top. Cut it at the top and pull it out from the bottom.
Do you have a horizontal or a vertical bobbin?
If you tell me what machine you have I might be able to offer you some more hints.
I don't know how heavy the fabric from Steves shirts are but you might need a little stabilizer while sewing. You can use tissue paper for this or there are some very nice tear away products sold.
This can be fun for you, Richard. I even sew w/ migraines. I turn off all the other lights, put on my sun glasses and go slow. I, however, have to be VERY careful not to watch the needle. I watch the edges of the fabric.
Good luck, my friend. If I can be of any help, please let me know.
Mary
p.s. One of my machines is a quilting machine!! I am such a lucky woman.
I love my machines. I have seven of them!
Richard, it really sounds to me like you are missing the uptake lever part of the times. It is easy for it to come unthreaded on a lot of machines.
A couple of points....
Like was said above cut long tails on threads. The other thing is don't try to pull the thread through w/ the presser foot down. When the foot is down the tension plates are engaged. By pulling through you screw up the tension. Also, never pull thread out from the top. Cut it at the top and pull it out from the bottom.
Do you have a horizontal or a vertical bobbin?
If you tell me what machine you have I might be able to offer you some more hints.
I don't know how heavy the fabric from Steves shirts are but you might need a little stabilizer while sewing. You can use tissue paper for this or there are some very nice tear away products sold.
This can be fun for you, Richard. I even sew w/ migraines. I turn off all the other lights, put on my sun glasses and go slow. I, however, have to be VERY careful not to watch the needle. I watch the edges of the fabric.
Good luck, my friend. If I can be of any help, please let me know.
Mary
p.s. One of my machines is a quilting machine!! I am such a lucky woman.
survivor- Posts : 115
Join date : 2010-04-04
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
I'm there with you Richard. I don't sew much of anything except mending when needed, but any time I try to do something with the sewing machine it's just a big frustrating mess. I don't even get it out anymore. I fix everything by hand. It keeps me from losing my sanity.
Brenda- Posts : 476
Join date : 2009-12-04
Age : 58
Location : Hummelstown, PA
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
Maybe practice on the little throw away pieces first, Richard?
It's important to get a feel of a fabric and get the hang of sewing with machine and the fabric beforehand.
Then you'll see it's quite easy.
I used to hate my sewing machine too, until I got enough practice and understood how the little devil works.
Risa
It's important to get a feel of a fabric and get the hang of sewing with machine and the fabric beforehand.
Then you'll see it's quite easy.
I used to hate my sewing machine too, until I got enough practice and understood how the little devil works.
Risa
CluelessKitty- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2009-12-04
Location : Surrey, BC, Canada
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
Howdy and thanks for the advice. I now believe an exorcism of this darn machine is in order and will schedule one soon! LOL
I have a stupid verticle bobbin. Hate bobbins of all kinds but I hate the verticle ones the most. So why did I buy this machine? No idea.
But yall's advice is good and I shall continue trying. Thanks.
I have a stupid verticle bobbin. Hate bobbins of all kinds but I hate the verticle ones the most. So why did I buy this machine? No idea.
But yall's advice is good and I shall continue trying. Thanks.
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
I cant sew. My Husband can sew a bit. I cant. When buttons fall off in our house, we buy new clothes. I am that bad.
My mother could sew ,she would make her own evening gowns
I would come home from school and have to navigate the living room floor on my toes.
It would be covered in paper patterns with material pinned on.
She tried to teach me the sewing machine. I was crap. I sewed my fingers and not much else.
I was a hot needle threader though. I also managed to somehow get on of these needles embedded into my butt.
It showed up during an IVP 20 years later. I was totally unaware of it...No sense no feelling..
In school we had to do "needlework". I was useless.
We had to make a "housecoat". I took mine home each week and my mum did it for me.
The teacher knew this, she would watch me sit and sew my fingers together with thread.
I wanted to drop the subject ,but they would not let me, nor would they tolerate my idleness.
So they gave me beads to thread onto string. When I had done them all I would tip them off and start over.
You couldn't do that to a child these days....I was eleven.
BUT I digress: My daughter has a sack load of Heavy Metal T shirts she has wanted to make into a quilt.
Now quilting is neither popular nor cool here. She doesnt know how to do it.
She has also remarkably declined my assistsance.
Can anyone help her please?
Of course we may find she has inherited my needle skills, but must hope not.
Oh and we no longer own a sewing machine so she might have to work by hand....
My mother could sew ,she would make her own evening gowns
I would come home from school and have to navigate the living room floor on my toes.
It would be covered in paper patterns with material pinned on.
She tried to teach me the sewing machine. I was crap. I sewed my fingers and not much else.
I was a hot needle threader though. I also managed to somehow get on of these needles embedded into my butt.
It showed up during an IVP 20 years later. I was totally unaware of it...No sense no feelling..
In school we had to do "needlework". I was useless.
We had to make a "housecoat". I took mine home each week and my mum did it for me.
The teacher knew this, she would watch me sit and sew my fingers together with thread.
I wanted to drop the subject ,but they would not let me, nor would they tolerate my idleness.
So they gave me beads to thread onto string. When I had done them all I would tip them off and start over.
You couldn't do that to a child these days....I was eleven.
BUT I digress: My daughter has a sack load of Heavy Metal T shirts she has wanted to make into a quilt.
Now quilting is neither popular nor cool here. She doesnt know how to do it.
She has also remarkably declined my assistsance.
Can anyone help her please?
Of course we may find she has inherited my needle skills, but must hope not.
Oh and we no longer own a sewing machine so she might have to work by hand....
pen- Posts : 2711
Join date : 2009-12-04
Location : London. UK
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
Richard, I too have a stack of squares, all neatly cut, of the jeans of my baby brother who passed away in 2003.
I CAN sew....but quilts are a whole other beast aren't they?
I keep thinking I'm the screw up, but now that I'm reading these posts I suppose I should blame my bobbin too!
What part is the bobbin?
I CAN sew....but quilts are a whole other beast aren't they?
I keep thinking I'm the screw up, but now that I'm reading these posts I suppose I should blame my bobbin too!
What part is the bobbin?
milo- Posts : 696
Join date : 2009-12-07
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
Oh dear, Milo! The bobbin is the item wound full of thread that is under the needle. If you need help, check out your local craft store - some offer classes on sewing and quilting.
You guys are too funny. I've been sewing since I was 9 and have made evening dresses and suits (jackets are always interesting). Kind of nice that I can go find a pattern, find material I like and make it up within a week or so.
Just remember to breath...I have to remind myself of this as my machines occasionally need an exorcism as well.
You guys are too funny. I've been sewing since I was 9 and have made evening dresses and suits (jackets are always interesting). Kind of nice that I can go find a pattern, find material I like and make it up within a week or so.
Just remember to breath...I have to remind myself of this as my machines occasionally need an exorcism as well.
HeelerLady- Posts : 1122
Join date : 2010-02-04
Age : 43
Location : Wisconsin
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
I knew what the bobbin was (thanks to my mum), but it ends there.
My talent was just as needle threader (read previous post)
And now I cant even see to do that....
Lost cause. The T shirts will forever be T shirts I fear.
Doomed to stay in a black sack in the loft.
My talent was just as needle threader (read previous post)
And now I cant even see to do that....
Lost cause. The T shirts will forever be T shirts I fear.
Doomed to stay in a black sack in the loft.
pen- Posts : 2711
Join date : 2009-12-04
Location : London. UK
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
I have never attempted a T shirt quilt ... I think it would be a monster ... the jersey fabric has so much "give" and stretch to it that I cannot imagine piecing it together. I suppose an applique quilt would be in order ... but smarter folks can give you better advice.
Well, team, practice does indeed make ... if not perfect, then better. I re-wound the bobbin ... MUCH better, thanks. I learned that if the needle is not on the cloth, like at the end of a seam when I try to go backwards, the bobbin will screw up everytime. Duh! Operator error.
I also figured out that guys cheat. A table saw is much like a sewing machine. You cut the pieces exactly to fit together right. but guys cheat. Before any carpenter worth his salt makes a delicate cut on a table saw or even a band saw, we make a jig. A jig is usually a piece of wood that guides the wood to be cut in an exact path. We also use feather boards and clamps to hold the wood to be cut exactly where it ought to be in relation otthe blade.
But with making a 4" seam on 2 4" squares, it is the operator alone who must accurately guide the material to the needle foot. Not fair! Why can't there be jig to hold the cloth exactly and to get a perfectly straight seam? I bet the manufacturers have them (outside the sweat shops). Are there sewing jigs for home machines?
The top is coming along. Still way too much operator error - but I am learning what I am doing wrong. that is progress of a sort.
Well, team, practice does indeed make ... if not perfect, then better. I re-wound the bobbin ... MUCH better, thanks. I learned that if the needle is not on the cloth, like at the end of a seam when I try to go backwards, the bobbin will screw up everytime. Duh! Operator error.
I also figured out that guys cheat. A table saw is much like a sewing machine. You cut the pieces exactly to fit together right. but guys cheat. Before any carpenter worth his salt makes a delicate cut on a table saw or even a band saw, we make a jig. A jig is usually a piece of wood that guides the wood to be cut in an exact path. We also use feather boards and clamps to hold the wood to be cut exactly where it ought to be in relation otthe blade.
But with making a 4" seam on 2 4" squares, it is the operator alone who must accurately guide the material to the needle foot. Not fair! Why can't there be jig to hold the cloth exactly and to get a perfectly straight seam? I bet the manufacturers have them (outside the sweat shops). Are there sewing jigs for home machines?
The top is coming along. Still way too much operator error - but I am learning what I am doing wrong. that is progress of a sort.
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
Richard,
I don't know how deep your seams are. Usually there is a plate on one (or both) sides of the foot to gauge depth. If there isn't, take a ruler or tape measure and measure out from the needle how deep you want your seam and either take a piece of tape or use a pen and make a mark. You then line up the edge of your material with this mark and you get a nice straight seam.
Becky
I don't know how deep your seams are. Usually there is a plate on one (or both) sides of the foot to gauge depth. If there isn't, take a ruler or tape measure and measure out from the needle how deep you want your seam and either take a piece of tape or use a pen and make a mark. You then line up the edge of your material with this mark and you get a nice straight seam.
Becky
HeelerLady- Posts : 1122
Join date : 2010-02-04
Age : 43
Location : Wisconsin
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
Richard,
Quilters cheat too. There is a foot called a quarter inch foot that is used for piecing quilts. It has a piece that comes down off of it and in front of the needle that you butt your fabric up against. Which brings me to another point. Fabric isn't stiff and flat like wood. Quilters cheat there. We starch the fabric heavily to make it stiffer and easier to handle as we sew. (that sentence was very difficult for me because I had another less polite description of how I starch the fabric and couldn't think of another!)
T-shirt quilts have to be stabilized. One solution for this is to use an iron on product but you risk the decoration on the t-shirt. There is a spray that is washable. Don't use the June Taylor brand. There is one that is called 520, Ithink. Dritz also makes one. Spray a backing fabric like muslin with the spray and position the t-shirt on it. Then cut the square out in the size you want and sew the t-squares w/ the backing attached as if it were one piece of fabric.
The best ones I have seen for accomadating different sizes of designs is to cut them all the same width but different height. Sew them together in columns with an appropriate fabric strip between each t-shirt. Generally 2 to 3" finished size. Then sew the columns together.
I am sorry if anyone feels I have overtaken this thread. I am just trying to be helpful.
I'll try to shut up now.
Mary
Quilters cheat too. There is a foot called a quarter inch foot that is used for piecing quilts. It has a piece that comes down off of it and in front of the needle that you butt your fabric up against. Which brings me to another point. Fabric isn't stiff and flat like wood. Quilters cheat there. We starch the fabric heavily to make it stiffer and easier to handle as we sew. (that sentence was very difficult for me because I had another less polite description of how I starch the fabric and couldn't think of another!)
T-shirt quilts have to be stabilized. One solution for this is to use an iron on product but you risk the decoration on the t-shirt. There is a spray that is washable. Don't use the June Taylor brand. There is one that is called 520, Ithink. Dritz also makes one. Spray a backing fabric like muslin with the spray and position the t-shirt on it. Then cut the square out in the size you want and sew the t-squares w/ the backing attached as if it were one piece of fabric.
The best ones I have seen for accomadating different sizes of designs is to cut them all the same width but different height. Sew them together in columns with an appropriate fabric strip between each t-shirt. Generally 2 to 3" finished size. Then sew the columns together.
I am sorry if anyone feels I have overtaken this thread. I am just trying to be helpful.
I'll try to shut up now.
Mary
survivor- Posts : 115
Join date : 2010-04-04
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
Really great advice Mary - take over any time you want! A backing for T-shirts ... how clever. And I wish I had starched my material before cutting the squares - brilliant! I have many of my Dad's shirts to make Christmas stockings for my brothers and to make a baby quilt for Carey ... or her near-aged cousin - who ever gets married and has children first. My bet is Carey - but she is not in any hurry. Starch - thank you so much fo rthe suggestion!
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
I find this most enlightening. My wife will be swearing at you all for "wakening" my sewing bug.
Now I want to try some more things.
I'll shyly call myself an artist and have been very successful selling some sewn items. I designed and sewed some really cool felt bags that were a mad hit! I also made some good cash on dog collers and matching leashes.
I'm a really crappy sewer though. I still swear it's the machine.
Now I want to try some more things.
I'll shyly call myself an artist and have been very successful selling some sewn items. I designed and sewed some really cool felt bags that were a mad hit! I also made some good cash on dog collers and matching leashes.
I'm a really crappy sewer though. I still swear it's the machine.
milo- Posts : 696
Join date : 2009-12-07
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
I hand stitch all my knife sheaths even though my wife has four sewing machines and one is just for leather. I think for sheaths at least it's still faster. And definitely much neater and clean looking. By the time I got the machine set up and running right I would be mostly done.
My wife is also seriously into quilting and has a loom which makes it faster.
My wife is also seriously into quilting and has a loom which makes it faster.
Brent- Posts : 620
Join date : 2010-01-28
Location : Rainier WA
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
the jersey fabric has so much "give" and stretch to it that I cannot imagine piecing it together
well my mother in the olden times pinned such fabric with the thin paper (like rice paper) underneath and simply sew it together - the teeth of the sewing machine didn't stretched such protected a fabric.
Then just ripped the paper off afterward.
The paper would come off quite easily since the needle pierced it neatly and closely in a row.
A little specks here and there will come off a wash eventually.
Risa
CluelessKitty- Posts : 1087
Join date : 2009-12-04
Location : Surrey, BC, Canada
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
This is one my wife just finished for some friends. When the pic was taken the batting was not on yet.
https://2img.net/h/i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/BrentFinnigan/elkquilt-web.jpg
https://2img.net/h/i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/BrentFinnigan/elkquilt-web.jpg
Brent- Posts : 620
Join date : 2010-01-28
Location : Rainier WA
Quilts I hate sewing machines
regarding the bobbin snarling up.
from experince of the silliest combination of differrent sewing machines in one classroom you could possibly imagine for one year teaching textile tech when the real teacher left the school I discovered the huge difference between the way machines load the bobins under the machine.
Most do better if you hold the thread as you load the shuttle for the first few seconds because when you don't the thread can kind of twist and laod unevenly, resulting in usexpected differences in tension between bottom and top. It doesn't show up if you are doing just a medium size straight stitch right in the middle of the needle hole area, but you try putting a different foot on or putting the needle to one side, or putting in the second needle, or sewing anything with any thickness and most machines will snarl up from beneath.
Also I found that different machines hated some makes of thread, which shouldn't be the case at all but the evidence showed otherwise.
On my own machine sometimes the way to sort out tesion issues seems to be to put the top bobin onto the extra vertical bobin pole that I can ad on top of the machine. It is for when you have a really big reel of thread and seems more tolerant when making quilts.
My last quilt had image transfers of old family photographs in it so there was loads of discrepancies with thicknesses of materials. I remeber making the stiches a tiny bit bigger and lossening tension a tiny bit to accomodate everything, and I had to reload the lower bobin becuse the first loading wasn't good enough for what I was doing.
Sorry if this is saying stuff that folks know already and people will probably have a machine that proves everything I've just said is totally wrong. Sewing machines are just plain funny, always needing coaxing when they are asked to perform when doing something different and it doesn't seem to matter if you read the instructions or not, it always seems to involve trial and error.
So yes they are rally frustrating!!!
Di
from experince of the silliest combination of differrent sewing machines in one classroom you could possibly imagine for one year teaching textile tech when the real teacher left the school I discovered the huge difference between the way machines load the bobins under the machine.
Most do better if you hold the thread as you load the shuttle for the first few seconds because when you don't the thread can kind of twist and laod unevenly, resulting in usexpected differences in tension between bottom and top. It doesn't show up if you are doing just a medium size straight stitch right in the middle of the needle hole area, but you try putting a different foot on or putting the needle to one side, or putting in the second needle, or sewing anything with any thickness and most machines will snarl up from beneath.
Also I found that different machines hated some makes of thread, which shouldn't be the case at all but the evidence showed otherwise.
On my own machine sometimes the way to sort out tesion issues seems to be to put the top bobin onto the extra vertical bobin pole that I can ad on top of the machine. It is for when you have a really big reel of thread and seems more tolerant when making quilts.
My last quilt had image transfers of old family photographs in it so there was loads of discrepancies with thicknesses of materials. I remeber making the stiches a tiny bit bigger and lossening tension a tiny bit to accomodate everything, and I had to reload the lower bobin becuse the first loading wasn't good enough for what I was doing.
Sorry if this is saying stuff that folks know already and people will probably have a machine that proves everything I've just said is totally wrong. Sewing machines are just plain funny, always needing coaxing when they are asked to perform when doing something different and it doesn't seem to matter if you read the instructions or not, it always seems to involve trial and error.
So yes they are rally frustrating!!!
Di
dizzyflower- Posts : 309
Join date : 2009-12-20
Age : 50
Location : Devon
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
Wow, thanks Di. I learned a great deal reading your experience. I do know that my machine will not handle 100% cotton thread - it has to be a poly/cotton blend or the machine will screw up without fail. Again, thanks for all the info!
Re: Quilts - I Hate Sewing Machines
Brent I loved that quilt. Not sure if my daughter could turn her T shirts into something as good as that.
pen- Posts : 2711
Join date : 2009-12-04
Location : London. UK
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