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Botox and Medical Cannabis

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tdu
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Post  KyotoMomo Wed Nov 28, 2012 9:11 pm

I am a chronic Migraine sufferer and have cycled in and out of chronic intractable Migraine.
With the impact of Chronic Migraine upon my life I have also contended with Depression and have found adding Zoloft beneficial.
Nine months ago I began regular 3 month cycles of Botox injections for Migraine.
After the treatments began I did have some reduction in frequency and severity.
Then about six months ago I remembered how in college I had been in a cycle of fewer Migraines and that at that time I was using Cannabis regularly. Fortunately, I live in a state with Medical marijuana legislation and was able to receive a prescription from a Dr.
Now I use Cannabis tincture in my coffee every morning and am having significantly fewer Migraines and they are responding much better to the abortive NSAID that I inject at Migraine onset.
By using the Cannabis tincture I do not get any "Head Change" or "High".
I seem to only get the benefit of being able to stick out my work day more functioning and with much less pain.
Finding this combination of treatments is finally giving me some relief.
I am starting to be able to function more normally, missing less work, spending much less time sick.
I just wanted to share my bit hope with some other sufferers.
One last thing:
I also have found that when I'm sick with Migraine and am able to lie down that if I tightly wrap an ace bandage around my head that I do get some mild relief This by far works best in conjunction with my meds, darkness, mantras, and hopefully sleep.

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Post  tdu Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:46 am

Cannabis oil is supposedly the way to go, especially when trying Cannabis as a treatment for migraines. Unfortunately, if you don't live in an area with medicinal marijuana laws your options are to either try to find it illegally, or try to make it illegally. There are medicinal marijuana laws where I am, but I don't think you have access to items like Cannabis oil like you do in the some of the States. Some of the THC products available in dispensaries sound amazing.

There are all kinds of studies from reputable sources coming out saying Cannabis oil can do some pretty amazing things as far as treating and even stopping a lot of conditions. As well as the obvious research that ingesting or smoking weed normally can help a lot with symptoms.

What a backwards world we live in that we can't easily try it.

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Post  charmed quark Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:20 am

Even though I live in a medical marijuana state, we still have no functioning program 3 years after the legislation was passed. Also, my employer considers use of any form of marijuana, including medical, to be a firing offense even though the state law says you cannot be punished for using medical marijuana. I don't won't to be the one who has to sue to enforce this one!

So I've been using Marinol (pharmaceutical pure THC pill) which is acceptable to my employer. I get similar results as others have said for marijuana. BUT - it is too psychoactive for me so I have to use a very tiny dose. I would like to increase the dose to get a higher level of effectiveness except I run up against intolerable side effects. It is also too slow acting, so I would like the option of a quick-acting form ( say "vaporizing" the herbal form) to boost the levels when I feel a migraine coming on. And in my case, also when I get woken up with muscle spasms from my myelopathy. THC is very effective against the spasms.

In states with functioning medical marijuana programs, they often have high CBD, low THC varieties of medical marijuana - some of the names are "Halequin" and "CBD Z7". The high levels of CBD is suppose to do two things - it is effective in reducing migraines and muscle spasms and has no psychoactive effects, and it modulates any effects of the THC - the part that gets you "high"- reducing this effect.

It's possible the cannabis tinctures are high CBD/low THC depending on how they are made. Anybody know?

People report that they can get powerful relief with few other effects other than, perhaps, a slight tiredness.

I'd love to try one of the high CBD strains ( or the tinctures if they are low THC) if we ever get a working system here. Has anybody else run into one of these strains and did they work for migraines?

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Post  tdu Sun Dec 02, 2012 8:49 am

charmed quark wrote:Even though I live in a medical marijuana state, we still have no functioning program 3 years after the legislation was passed. Also, my employer considers use of any form of marijuana, including medical, to be a firing offense even though the state law says you cannot be punished for using medical marijuana. I don't won't to be the one who has to sue to enforce this one!

So I've been using Marinol (pharmaceutical pure THC pill) which is acceptable to my employer. I get similar results as others have said for marijuana. BUT - it is too psychoactive for me so I have to use a very tiny dose. I would like to increase the dose to get a higher level of effectiveness except I run up against intolerable side effects. It is also too slow acting, so I would like the option of a quick-acting form ( say "vaporizing" the herbal form) to boost the levels when I feel a migraine coming on. And in my case, also when I get woken up with muscle spasms from my myelopathy. THC is very effective against the spasms.

In states with functioning medical marijuana programs, they often have high CBD, low THC varieties of medical marijuana - some of the names are "Halequin" and "CBD Z7". The high levels of CBD is suppose to do two things - it is effective in reducing migraines and muscle spasms and has no psychoactive effects, and it modulates any effects of the THC - the part that gets you "high"- reducing this effect.

It's possible the cannabis tinctures are high CBD/low THC depending on how they are made. Anybody know?

People report that they can get powerful relief with few other effects other than, perhaps, a slight tiredness.

I'd love to try one of the high CBD strains ( or the tinctures if they are low THC) if we ever get a working system here. Has anybody else run into one of these strains and did they work for migraines?

The one thing I find with smoking weed is that you become more functional on it. It's not really building up a tolerance, it's just that you get used to it.

Ingesting it is a complete crap shoot from my experience though. It's tough to come up with really accurate dosing methods with a product that isn't even legal in most of North America, and that the pharmaceutical companies don't really have any interest in. I am betting some people who are really good at producing the oil can come up with a rough approximation of active ingredients and dosing. But that definitely doesn't cover all the product out there. And most people make it themselves.

With Marinol, it's not a substitute for the real thing. They don't even know what all causes marijuana to do what it does. Marinol can be helpful, but it's just not the same.

I think there is the potential to do whatever they want with the oil. If you had the right people working on it.

That situation with your employer is ridiculous. We still live in such backwards times. But, I know that's the norm for a lot of workplaces.

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Post  charmed quark Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:16 am

Our state, if they ever get the program working, sets strict requirements for measuring and reporting the levels of THC. Hopefully the dispensaries will also measure the other cannabinoids such as CBD. But at least knowing the level of THC will reduce the crap shoot of ingesting orally. Although I know from using Marinol it is still a bit of a risk because even taking a pharmaceutically measured does of THC will have different results depending when you last ate and other factors. Apparently it goes through a complicated process in the liver before it becomes available, and many things can impact the process. So sometimes, taking the exact same dose, I get too much and other times too little.

That's why vaporizing and smoking ( don't recommend that) are good for dosing. The effects are immediate so you can try small amounts and "titrate" up to the dose you need. The disadvantage is inhalation doesn't last as long as ingestion.

In any case, I'd still love to hear from someone who has used high CBD forms.

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Post  Mini Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:37 am

"They don't even know what all causes marijuana to do what it does" (tdu).
Exactly. It is often not known what any long term use of anything, let alone mind altering substances or medication, will have if you use something on regular basis.

The fact that something is legal, does not necessary mean that it will not have damaging consequences for us long term.

There are usually good reasons why such substabces are not legal, and one of the reasons is precisesly mentioned by tdu - we often don't know what they all do to us. Nobody knows what marihuana (medical, or not) does to anyone when some damage might not be apparentuntil years, or decades later.

I have recently read an article on the subject and it is really scary - scary becasue the damage is serious and unexpected as well as irreversible.

Such as permanent damage to your intelligence, or causing lung cancer etc, etc.
This are not simple scare stories, but serious scientific studies done over periods of many decades.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9426205/Cannabis-smoking-permanently-lowers-IQ.html

So, maybe it is not such a bad news that marihuana is not so easily available after all.
I rememebr that there were some people here in the past who always complained that they are having hallucianations (blaming it on M) whilst taking marihuana daily and on regular basis and they were not getting any relief from migraine either.

Of course in the end we always have a choice what remedies we are prepared to us or deciding what does more harm ,then good.
But I think it is best to have as much information as possible, if we are to make the best choices.
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Post  tdu Sun Dec 02, 2012 9:50 am

Mini wrote:"They don't even know what all causes marijuana to do what it does" (tdu).
Exactly. It is often not known what any long term use of anything, let alone mind altering substances or medication, will have if you use something on regular basis.

The fact that something is legal, does not necessary mean that it will not have damaging consequences for us long term.

There are usually good reasons why such substabces are not legal, and one of the reasons is precisesly mentioned by tdu - we often don't know what they all do to us. Nobody knows what marihuana (medical, or not) does to anyone when some damage might not be apparentuntil years, or decades later.

I have recently read an article on the subject and it is really scary - scary becasue the damage is serious and unexpected as well as irreversible.

Such as permanent damage to your intelligence, or causing lung cancer etc, etc.
This are not simple scare stories, but serious scientific studies done over periods of many decades.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9426205/Cannabis-smoking-permanently-lowers-IQ.html

So, maybe it is not such a bad news that marihuana is not so easily available after all.
I rememebr that there were some people here in the past who always complained that they are having hallucianations (blaming it on M) whilst taking marihuana daily and on regular basis and they were not getting any relief from migraine either.

Of course in the end we always have a choice what remedies we are prepared to us or deciding what does more harm ,then good.
But I think it is best to have as much information as possible, if we are to make the best choices.

The problem is there are just as many valid studies that completely contradict what that one says (including Harvard studies saying it can aid with slowing cancer growth). And the pharmaceutical companies have a MASSIVE vested interest in making sure a negative perception of Marijauna is maintained. I am not a conspiracy theorist, but the conspiracy around marijuana in general is not a theory at this point but a sick joke. There is plenty of documentation around as to why it was made illegal, and why it still is. And none of those reasons have to do with people's safety.

Also, regarding the side effects of marijuana you mentioned.... what do you think is going to be the long time side effects for those of who have taken pain killers, anti-seizure medications, beta-blockers and every other drug under the sun (I have for 25 years)? What about the effects alcohol has on people? Do you really think anything related to marijuana is more scary?

Sorry, you are not going to convince me that marijuana should be anything but legal. There is no 'good reason' why marijuana is illegal. Just a bunch that involve people making money of it being illegal. Once the stigma is removed, then the real research could actually begin as to what this plant can really do.


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Post  dcook60 Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:14 am

tdu (sorry i can't remember your name), i appreciate this discussion very much. even though i am definitely an old fogey at 72, and have a son 51, plus 4 other kids, i have resisted trying pot.

my kids have been after me for years, "just try it, mom. it might help your migraines". nope, smoke of any kind makes my head worse. but now i'm intrigued by the possibility of pot oil, which i'd never heard of until this thread.

i do live in a medical marijuana state, but of course the laws are all murky and incomprehensible. since i was a child in grade school and we learned in geography about the main crops in all the states and countries including hemp, i have thought it insane that such a useful plant is verboten totally, here.

i just read on wikipedia that there was even a propaganda film made during WWII called "hemp for victory".

please let other people who have knowledge of using the oil, chime in! thanks, dianne
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Post  Mini Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:18 am

I am not trying to convince you about anything tdu.
I can see that you are very keen on marihuana, and that you have abviously made up your mind about the subject considering it a miracle solution. This is fine, this is your choice.

But marihuane is not some miracle solution for migraine.
It is not. It is far from it.

Although it is true that apparently marihuana can bring a pain relief for some rheumatic and MS conditions for some people. But so far we have not heard of too many examples of marihuana helping with migraine pain.

We all know that no miracle solutions exist.
I also mention that the use of marihuana, just like any other remedies or medication, when taken long term has many dangers and must be used only after careful consideration.

Yes, I absolutely agree that pharmaceutical and some other companies have a lot of vested interest in paying for all sorts of studies (yes at Harvard, too) to prove that their products works best.

But not all such studies are funded by big private interests, so some results can be trusted more then others.

We can all do our own research. This is all we can do.
And this is what I was suggesting we all do.



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Post  charmed quark Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:55 am

Mini - the study you linked is nonsense.

I was part of a review board that was supporting our state's Health Department in crafting our medical marijuana law. One of the things I did with a committee was review ALL the medical literature regarding harms and benefits of marijuana.

One of the first things you notice is the number of very poor quality studies looking for harm. That's because these were financed , in the USA, by the DEA/NIDA which would only sponsor studies they thought would find harms. NIDA had a very low bar for approving these studies as long as they claimed they could show harm. Britain has a similar story.

Several impartial medical reviews have been performed that first rejected any study that would not meet medical peer review standards. They then did "meta analysis" of the remaining studies. What came out of this, in terms of harm were:

1) Long-term, heavy marijuana use ( we are talking about people smoking 5-10 joints a day for 20+ years) was associated with a very small and reversible ( after abstaining for a few weeks) decrease in short term memory and possibly ( almost in the noise) lowering of reasoning ability. The latter is almost undetectable. These persisted even if the person wasn't "high" but went away after a couple of weeks.

Absolutely nothing showed up indicating a permanent lowering of IQ - that's just junk science of which there is unfortunately a lot for marijuana. Correlation does not imply causation and there was likely a selection process in the poorly performed study you referenced.

2) There appears to be a correlation between marijuana use in the early teens and an earlier onset of schizophrenia . The marijuana does not cause the disorder but may trigger an earlier onset than would occur otherwise. However, it is very difficult to tease out the cause and effects, as people experiencing the early symptoms of schizophrenia appear to "self medicate" with street drugs, perhaps trying to reduce the symptoms. These people have a higher incident of the use of other illicit drugs so it is very hard to tell which drug, if any, was really related to this earlier onset.

While most researchers think it is unlikely this correlation will hold up with further study, I would be leery, until this is resolved, of recommending medical marijuana to a young teen from a family with a history of mental illness.

3) Heavy smokers of marijuana have more bronchitis but a lower incidence of lung cancer. Tobacco mixed with cannabis seems to make things worst.

So I would never recommend someone smoke cannabis but instead recommend they inhale it using a vaporizer. This is as fast as smoking without any harmful effects. Or eat it using so-called cannabis butter in cooking or a tincture. Sublingual tinctures ( under the tongue) may be, for the ingestion, methods, especially rapid in onset.

In terms of positive medical uses, the metastudies indicate it works as well or better than existing medications for:
1)neuropathic pain ( pain caused by nerve damage and from brain disorders)
2)controlling spasticity and spams
3)helping with the symptoms of Crohn's disease and other inflammatory bowel diseases
4)helping with the loss of appetite and wasting of cancer, AIDS and similar disease

Migraine has not been studied that much so no recommendation could be made for migraines, although it might help via the neuropathic pain path.

Marijuana/Cannabis has been studied heavily for the last 40 years looking for negative impacts, because of the NIDA and other groups, and very little has held up. It is probably the most extensively studied pharmaceutical in history.

From looking at the literature, I am pretty confident that any risks of marijuana are now known. Something you can't say for the long-term use of most approved pharmaceuticals.

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Post  tdu Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:02 pm

Mini wrote:I am not trying to convince you about anything tdu.
I can see that you are very keen on marihuana, and that you have abviously made up your mind about the subject considering it a miracle solution. This is fine, this is your choice.

But marihuane is not some miracle solution for migraine.
It is not. It is far from it.

Although it is true that apparently marihuana can bring a pain relief for some rheumatic and MS conditions for some people. But so far we have not heard of too many examples of marihuana helping with migraine pain.

We all know that no miracle solutions exist.
I also mention that the use of marihuana, just like any other remedies or medication, when taken long term has many dangers and must be used only after careful consideration.

Yes, I absolutely agree that pharmaceutical and some other companies have a lot of vested interest in paying for all sorts of studies (yes at Harvard, too) to prove that their products works best.

But not all such studies are funded by big private interests, so some results can be trusted more then others.

We can all do our own research. This is all we can do.
And this is what I was suggesting we all do.




Are you kidding me? Where did anyone in this thread say it's a 'cure' for migraines? It's actually kind of insulting for you to even post that conclusion from our posts.

It CAN be a viable TREATMENT for migraine SYMPTOMS. As for other potential treatments, there COULD be more treatments for migraines if it was studied properly. But these archaic laws, and nonsense studies exaggerating the harm of it help prevent that. That propaganda does not help anyone.

As yes, I am 'keen' on it. Even people who don't use it medicinally or recreationally should be. Even if you don't think it's helpful for migraines, you should be. There are many proven uses of it for other conditions, and more people can't get legal access to it than can. That is just sad. Not to mention, the ridiculous laws also prevent more use of Hemp in countries like the States because it's grouped into the laws even though it's not psychoactive. Hemp is literally a miracle fibre with hundreds of uses from fuel, to paper, to building supplies.

If you are going to debate it, then you should make yourself more familiar with other sides of the issue. I am not saying that to be insulting, but the 'research' you posted is just what you find at the very surface if you go looking strictly from the perspective of marijuana being 'harmful'.

As for the use of the word 'miracle', I bo believe it's a miracle substance. It's an incredible plant with so many potential benefits that haven't been discovered yet.

charmed, thank you very much for your post. I don't quite have the gift of word that you have.

I'm sorry I get so riled up about this issue guys. If you ever have someone in your life suffering from terminal cancer or a degenerative disease, and you watch how marijuana has helped them, you would have a different opinion. If you ever had crippling anxiety, and had it help you get through it without being on meds that completely mess up your brain (how I was introduced) you might have a different perspective as well. I take the marijuana issue, and the misinformation about it very seriously.



Last edited by tdu on Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:20 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Post  Migrainegirl Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:05 pm

Quark,

Thanks for the excellent review of the scientific literature on this. I'm pretty sure if you compared the short term and long term effects of alcohol consumption to marijuana consumption (both health and societal impacts), there is no doubt that we would outlaw alcohol rather than marijuana as a recreational drug.

I certainly favor that it should be available for medical prescription to those who need it. What is so magical about drugs cooked up in laboratories (often derived from natural substances) as opposed to those more directly from nature? (other than who gets the profits). My state has recently approved medical maijuana, but it still sorting out the process.

That said, I don't plan to try it for migraine. My main goal is to be functional. MJ just zombies you up, so trying to get any work done would be pretty much impossible.
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Post  tdu Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:13 pm

Migrainegirl wrote:Quark,

Thanks for the excellent review of the scientific literature on this. I'm pretty sure if you compared the short term and long term effects of alcohol consumption to marijuana consumption (both health and societal impacts), there is no doubt that we would outlaw alcohol rather than marijuana as a recreational drug.

I certainly favor that it should be available for medical prescription to those who need it. What is so magical about drugs cooked up in laboratories (often derived from natural substances) as opposed to those more directly from nature? (other than who gets the profits). My state has recently approved medical maijuana, but it still sorting out the process.

That said, I don't plan to try it for migraine. My main goal is to be functional. MJ just zombies you up, so trying to get any work done would be pretty much impossible.

This part of it is especially ridiculous. Marijuana is a plant the grows most places on earth naturally, and is easy to use. But, workplaces have decided that Marinol is ok, but marijuana isn't as far as drug testing. If there was ever any proof of how much power the pharmaceutical companies actually have, that it is. Marinol is prescription, and makes someone money. Marijuana does not.

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Post  charmed quark Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:39 pm

Marinol and likely marijuana really don't "zombie you up".

I take a small dose at bedtime and the main thing I notice is mild sedation. Larger doses cause me anxiety and other symptoms, which is why I keep it small. No zombie symptoms! Of course, we are all different.

I need to work and not spend my days with migraines and spasticity. The small dose helps me sleep without being woken up by spasms and generally keeps migraines at bay for the next 24 hours.

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Post  Migrainegirl Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:31 pm

I see. So that sounds like you are using it as a preventative, rather than as a pain reliever when you get an attack? What level of decrease in headaches have you seen since you started taking it? How long have you been using this approach?

Thanks for the info!
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Post  charmed quark Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:05 pm

You are correct, I use it as a preventative.

I use to get 3 big all-day migraines a week and maybe 3 small migraines. I now get maybe 1 small migraine a couple of times a month.

Been doing this for 9 years or so.

But I do sometimes use it for acute pain/spasm relief - for my myelopathy more than migraines as the oral form is too slow acting to abort a migraine. I have to use something before the migraine really gets going or it is too late. I was briefly in a medical trial for migraines associated with the U. of California and used a vaporizer. I could abort them just as they started with this method.

YMMV - I think my migraines are triggered by my spasticicty and spasms and the Marinol works very well on these. Maybe it won't work as well on other causes of migraines, although some people here report success.

The trick is to use the smallest effective dose. I doubt, for most people, this will cause the acute "high" zombie effects you referred to. But that's why I'm interested in the high CBD/low THC strains that don't get you high even in large doses.

But in any case, as they say, the dose makes the poison. Just about any medication taken in too high a dose is going to cause problems. The question is whether you can find a dose that achieves the desire medical effects with minimal side effects.

BTW, MigraineGirl, I bet we are in the same state! New Jersey is a state of mind, after all. I've been very involved in trying to get the medical program here. It's funny, because I don't use actual marijuana and have no plans to do so.

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Post  tdu Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:49 pm

charmed,

I have only heard about those low THC strains on radio shows and web sites. I don't know if they are super common yet or not. Sorry, I missed your question where you asked if people had tried them. I have yet to hear about them 'on the street'.

I'd be interested in trying them. Personally, I like stronger indiga strains because they help me sleep. I run into major insomnia bouts, and that equates to more migraines. So it's a great help with that, and that is one of my main uses. But, I am definitely not very functional taking that route. I'd be interested in a strain I could try during the day that didn't have much of a high.

To get into Migrainegirl's question, I would say I mainly use it as a preventative as well. I smoke a small amount each night before bed. The only 'evidence' I personally have for it as a migraine treatment is that I get far less migraines following that ritual. There could be many reasons for that, my personal believe is that it improves my sleep, and relaxes my muscles before bed. I get a lot of neck pain that can really come on while I am sleeping, and it reduces that a ton it seems.

But, what is interesting is that if I smoke too much before bed, it has been known to cause a migraine. So I had to find what works for me. It's been mentioned in every marijuana thread on this forum, but it can never be mentioned enough.... there are different strains of weed that produce a completely different type of 'high'. If you don't research what you are smoking or eating and just randomly try marijuana as a treatment, you could have a bad experience. EG if you end up trying a really strong Sativa hoping to improve your sleep rather than an Indiga strain, you will be in for a surprise.

I definitely need a vaporizer as charmed mentioned, the problem is I just can't afford one. I agree 100% that using a vaporize or oil is the way to go.


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Post  Mini Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:18 am

Charmed Qaurk,
I am trying to respond in a calm way to your highly emotional reaction to my link concerning the lastest research into the use of cannabis.
I think your statement that the article I mention is " a nonsense" is not only unnecessarily aggressive, but factually incorrect. This is a serious paper. Serious research.

You do not mention when exactly it was that you were part of this decision making group on the use of cannabis, becasue this is highly relevant. Much reasearch becomes quickly outdated in the light of the later discoveries. So your opinion although correct at the time, might be mistaken.

The scentific paper that I quote concerning the effect of the long term use of cannabis in lowering IQ was tested over more then 20 years period and has been published quite recently, so you opinions might be based on the outdated facts.

You are not telling us what specific neuroscientific qualifications you have to arrive at such decision, or to assess what kind of research has scientific merit, and which one does not.

Especially in the view of the fact that this veryt reserach has obtained the full approval of the US Academy of Sciences and that it took over 20 years of a strict and carefully documented (and filmed) scientific material. To dismiss such research is as "a nonsense" is simply innapropriate. No serious researcher would dismiss such findings.
I do not know if you have any trust in the US National Academy of Sciences but this research has been approved and has been published in their own journal : Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Any research can only be judged by reading more and going to the sources, not dismissing something without knowing the full facts, or making your mind up in advance.
This is not how truly scientific judgements are made.
I can only conclude that in the view of the fact that you are actually using cannabis derivative yourself, in scientific terms your personal opinion cannot be considered to be objective.



For anyone who wishes to know more the facts and this interesting reasearch as well as to see the more detailed workings of the human brain in relation to cannabis, and how it happens and why, you can read this easily digestible explanation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19396351
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19372456

I also must make a point, that I have NO issue whatsover, with people using medical cannabis under medical supervision, so if cannabis helps you Charmed Quark I am genuinely pleased for you. I only have an issue with you making up your mind, without considering the full facts of the matter, and about being dismissive of other people's important work.

I know that many medicines derive from natural remedies, the prime example is our common aspirin of course. But we must remember, that also some of the most deadly poisons are natural plants growing in the wild like the deadly nightshade, poisonous mushrooms etc. This is why we need to be so careful. Natural does nto necessary mean safe, does it.

I also believe that much of the research these days cannot be taken seriously, as it is paid for and distorted on the behalf of the big pharmaceutical companies resulting in death and suffering of millions of people, so we must do much more work ourselves, if we want to find the real facts.

However, it might be a serious mistake to overlook the fact, that there is still some genuine, good research going on, whereby honest scientists often spend a lifetime of dedication and hard work to arrive at the results which, as in this case, might not suit some pople but are nevertheless are quite correct and scientifically proven.

Beware that it is always dangerous to make a political issue out of our health.
Like the fact that the mere mention that cannabis might have it's dangers (which is true and you agree I am sure), and that we need to be aware of that fact, seems to be upsetting some people.

I cannot see why it might not be possible to give the issue some calm consideration and to see what we can learn from each other.

Like many othet people here I try to find out more about what is going on and then pass it on when I see a subject mentioned - as far as I am concerned, this issue is not different from any other.

And if cannabis could help migranes without causing me any harm, I would consider it too. But I have not been convinced on the basis of what I can hear on the subject, so far (although I know someone who gets some relief from the medicinal cannabis for relief of MS pain).
I always try to read more about any possible remedy. That is all.
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Post  tdu Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:34 am

Mini wrote:Charmed Qaurk,
I am trying to respond in a calm way to your highly emotional reaction to my link concerning the lastest research into the use of cannabis.
I think your statement that the article I mention is " a nonsense" is not only unnecessarily aggressive, but factually incorrect. This is a serious paper. Serious research.

You do not mention when exactly it was that you were part of this decision making group on the use of cannabis, becasue this is highly relevant. Much reasearch becomes quickly outdated in the light of the later discoveries. So your opinion although correct at the time, might be mistaken.

The scentific paper that I quote concerning the effect of the long term use of cannabis in lowering IQ was tested over more then 20 years period and has been published quite recently, so you opinions might be based on the outdated facts.

You are not telling us what specific neuroscientific qualifications you have to arrive at such decision, or to assess what kind of research has scientific merit, and which one does not.

Especially in the view of the fact that this veryt reserach has obtained the full approval of the US Academy of Sciences and that it took over 20 years of a strict and carefully documented (and filmed) scientific material. To dismiss such research is as "a nonsense" is simply innapropriate. No serious researcher would dismiss such findings.
I do not know if you have any trust in the US National Academy of Sciences but this research has been approved and has been published in their own journal : Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Any research can only be judged by reading more and going to the sources, not dismissing something without knowing the full facts, or making your mind up in advance.
This is not how truly scientific judgements are made.
I can only conclude that in the view of the fact that you are actually using cannabis derivative yourself, in scientific terms your personal opinion cannot be considered to be objective.



For anyone who wishes to know more the facts and this interesting reasearch as well as to see the more detailed workings of the human brain in relation to cannabis, and how it happens and why, you can read this easily digestible explanation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19396351
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19372456

I also must make a point, that I have NO issue whatsover, with people using medical cannabis under medical supervision, so if cannabis helps you Charmed Quark I am genuinely pleased for you. I only have an issue with you making up your mind, without considering the full facts of the matter, and about being dismissive of other people's important work.

I know that many medicines derive from natural remedies, the prime example is our common aspirin of course. But we must remember, that also some of the most deadly poisons are natural plants growing in the wild like the deadly nightshade, poisonous mushrooms etc. This is why we need to be so careful. Natural does nto necessary mean safe, does it.

I also believe that much of the research these days cannot be taken seriously, as it is paid for and distorted on the behalf of the big pharmaceutical companies resulting in death and suffering of millions of people, so we must do much more work ourselves, if we want to find the real facts.

However, it might be a serious mistake to overlook the fact, that there is still some genuine, good research going on, whereby honest scientists often spend a lifetime of dedication and hard work to arrive at the results which, as in this case, might not suit some pople but are nevertheless are quite correct and scientifically proven.

Beware that it is always dangerous to make a political issue out of our health.
Like the fact that the mere mention that cannabis might have it's dangers (which is true and you agree I am sure), and that we need to be aware of that fact, seems to be upsetting some people.

I cannot see why it might not be possible to give the issue some calm consideration and to see what we can learn from each other.

Like many othet people here I try to find out more about what is going on and then pass it on when I see a subject mentioned - as far as I am concerned, this issue is not different from any other.

And if cannabis could help migranes without causing me any harm, I would consider it too. But I have not been convinced on the basis of what I can hear on the subject, so far (although I know someone who gets some relief from the medicinal cannabis for relief of MS pain).
I always try to read more about any possible remedy. That is all.

You are talking to a forum full of people who have to take medications which are far more harmful than Marijuana could ever be. If you seriously have issues seeing that point, then there isn't much more than can be done to explain the other side of the issue. We are migraine sufferers. We take narcotics, anti-seizure medications, botox, anti-anxiety medications, beta-blockers and everything else under the sun. We take medications for off label purposes. We constantly try medications that are new as far as migraine treatment. Do you honestly think anything you posted in those studies is scarier than that?

Your posts come across as combative which is why people are taking exception to them (eg questions qualifications when you don't really have any yourself). For you to say that any of us posted that marijuana 'cures' migraines attempts to summarize our posts to suit your own view. In turn, you are getting strong responses back. And what exactly was not calm and rational about charmed's post earlier? It contains nothing but facts on the issue. The post you took exception to does not even contain any of his personal opinions on the issue. It's quoting research, just like you are in your post.

No on here is saying that marijuana isn't completely harmless, especially depending on how you choose to take it. But alcohol is harmful, narcotics are harmful, bad food is harmful, the sun can be harmful. You really need to look at the 'big picture'. Especially when you are migraine sufferer, ingesting poisons just like the rest of us.

I will fully admit I am not calm regarding the issue lol. I am not as educated as Charmed, and not as good at expressing my views. I feel your posts are derailing a thread that could help people. If you are posting these studies etc. in this thread, then you should be posting them in threads about ALL treatments because they all have the potential to be harmfull. And most much more so than Marijuana.


Last edited by tdu on Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:48 am; edited 3 times in total

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Post  charmed quark Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:52 am

Mini- sorry, didn't mean to be offensive. But you have to remember that I have waded through literally thousands of poor quality studies or studies that made conclusions not based on the data because of the strong political motivations behind the study. I am very sensitive to the silly alarmist conclusions that the news article ( not you) implied.

This study is a good one but is being politicized way beyond the actual results as is often the case with any negative finding results from a study, good or bad, concerning cannabis. I am frankly, quite tired of the mix of politics and medicine.

I have actually been following this study, the Dunedin Longitudinal Study, for years. It is a very nice longitudinal study, offering a rich set of interesting correlations, but these studies cannot really separate cause and effect, just provide correlations to stimulate more direct study.

The reason I used the term "nonsense" was not at the quality of the study or at you but the conclusions being drawn by other people from the study. Unless a longitudinal study shows stark and powerful correlations, you really can't draw these types of conclusions that are being popularized.

As one reviewer concluded:
"Valerie Curran, professor of psychopharmacology at University College London and a member of the UK's Independent Scientific Committee on Drugs, was more skeptical, saying that a other factors, such as depression, are also associated with heavy use and reduced motivation. “Although the overall sample size is excellent, the data on adolescent onset of heavy use is based on just over 50 people.”She also noted that the findings represent a very small decline in IQ as a result of very heavy use over a number of years.


The researchers found a subset of 50 people out of over 1000 studied who began heavy and sustained cannabis use in their early adolescence. They found that this subgroup had lower IQ scores when they were retested at an older age than other people who had lighter use or started using later in life. One wonders what else could be different about this subgroup in addition to their cannabis use that might be related to a declining IQ. They were able to eliminate differences in education as a cause, but there are likely to be other confounding factors.

Most important for us, Even if these results manage to hold up they have little relevance to perspective medical marijuana users posting here, even if they have to use it in large amounts. The very same study you referenced showed no IQ impact on people who started using cannabis heavily AFTER adolescence.

As I said earlier, cannabis has been the most heavily studied drug in history, with the vast majority of studies looking for negative effects. I reviewed earlier the negative effects that have held up so far. It is highly unlikely that new strong negative effects will show up as a result of further study. We are now looking for small, subtle, negative effects. I'm sure these will turn up as studies continue over the next hundred years.

No medication is harmless or without negative effects. The question is whether the benefits outweigh the negative effects. As I myself stated, I found the crossover between a dose of pure THC that gave beneficial effects and one that had intolerable negative effects to be narrow, for me. Other people seem to tolerate the negative effects (i.e., being slightly "high") much better than I do.

IF cannabis works for migraines, I would argue that the current information indicates it is by far one of the safer drugs one could use. There is very little research on the medical use of marijuana in the USA and many other countries because, for political reasons, this research could not receive funding. MS and neuropathic pain are one of the few areas that have managed to get research funding (mostly outside the US but also in California). It was only the discovery of the cannabinoid receptors fairly recently that has FORCED studies into medical uses.

Because the negative effects are low and the safety profile is incredibly high compared to existing migraine drugs, I think most doctors would not hesitate in having a patient try the drug to see if it worked even though the literature is currently weak for its use in migraines.

As for my background, my background is medicine and the physical sciences. I consider myself an educated layman in this area. Over the past 20 years I have worked with neurologists, physicians and medical researchers over the years reviewing the literature and helping legislators understand the science. The last review I performed, as part of a committee of a non-profit, was three years ago for our state's medical marijuana law. The medical area I have been most involved in are the autoimmune modulated neurological diseases such as Multiple Sclerosis. Migraines is a personal interest for me but not one of the areas I have specialized in.

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Post  tdu Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:55 am

I'd only like to make one other point. I have been using marijuana for 20 years now. I have seen a dozen Dr's and specialists regarding my migraines in that time, and have told every one of them I am a user. Their reactions have ranged from being completely fine with it, to being supportive of it. The last specialist I saw was the head of a very highly regarded pain management clinic (and chief neurologist of a large hospital), who also does research on using cannabis for pain management. In fact, he is an executive of an organization that does the research. I have never had a single specialist or Dr. tell me to stop using it, or tell me it would interfere with my other treatments.

So I don't claim to be any expert. But I have personal experience, and I have talked with experts. That is what forms my opinion on the matter.

My issues are not with it being legal or illegal, though I would like to see it be at least decriminalized. My issue is with the stigma around it preventing it being tested for more applications. And as Charmed said, people latch onto any negative study and use them to come up with some pretty reaching conclusions. That is not helping anyone.

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Post  Mini Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:29 am

Charmed Quark,
Thank you for your measured and interesting input, unfortunately I cannot answer you more fully at the moments in moreh detail as I think I am starting a cold (since I am just not feeeling right).
As always, my head is protesting first, so I cannot concentrate properly.

I only want to add one more important point:
that cannabis used today is incomparably stronger variety then the kind which was available 20 years ago, so in view of that fact and the issue that cannabis affects developing brain (which is observed by brain scans) when it is still developing in much more profuld way when you are in your teens, these results can be quite significant.

In any case I would not like for my child to be one of the 50 affected for life. I do not think any parent would.

You raise many interesting points, and I welcome stretching my mind and learning new facts, but at times it seems that some words bring worst in people here and it upsets me when it is impossible to have a normal, rational discussion without people loosing their temper. WE would all learn much more, if we allow different points of view to be expressed.

I have a feeling that we basically agree on many points CQ, even if we don't on some others.
I hope your head is not too bad today.
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Post  tdu Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:10 am

Mini wrote:Charmed Quark,
Thank you for your measured and interesting input, unfortunately I cannot answer you more fully at the moments in moreh detail as I think I am starting a cold (since I am just not feeeling right).
As always, my head is protesting first, so I cannot concentrate properly.

I only want to add one more important point:
that cannabis used today is incomparably stronger variety then the kind which was available 20 years ago, so in view of that fact and the issue that cannabis affects developing brain (which is observed by brain scans) when it is still developing in much more profuld way when you are in your teens, these results can be quite significant
.

In any case I would not like for my child to be one of the 50 affected for life. I do not think any parent would.

You raise many interesting points, and I welcome stretching my mind and learning new facts, but at times it seems that some words bring worst in people here and it upsets me when it is impossible to have a normal, rational discussion without people loosing their temper. WE would all learn much more, if we allow different points of view to be expressed.

I have a feeling that we basically agree on many points CQ, even if we don't on some others.
I hope your head is not too bad today.

I don't mean to harp on your posts, but this is another 'war on drug' myth that needs to be clarified. There has always been very strong marijuana available. There was stuff just as strong back in the 60's as there is now. The difference is people have developed more advanced growing techniques, and can consistently grow certain strains. Or engineer strains etc. So if you go into a dispensary, you can get very strong strains. Or, you can get strains that aren't as strong. Just like buying 100 porf rum, vs buying a bottle of wine at a liquor store. It's less of a 'crap shoot' nowadays. And, if dispensaries were an option everywhere, everyone would have the choice what to buy. So yes, buying on the street from an unknown dealer, buying an unknown product, you can end up with an unknown result. But, there are many ways to avoid that.

The point you make is a very common argument though, so I am not criticizing you for brining it up. It's just that the major fault in it is it makes a blanket statement, that isn't entirely accurate. Just like a lot of the other arguments against marijuana being legalized/decriminalized do.

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Post  charmed quark Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:42 am

No offense, but the THC levels in contemporary cannabis is the current approach by the NIDA to convince people that today's marijuana isn't the stuff your parents smoked back in the 60s. So be afraid, etc. They are desperately trying to hold onto their jobs and the jobs of people in the drug incarceration industry they support. Without marijuana, most of them would be out of work.

The THC percentages quoted are suspect according to sources I've seen. But in any case, even if the THC levels are higher users titrate - i.e., they use less when the THC is higher. Which might be a good thing as the lung effects if smoking (which I wouldn't recommend) would be less.

As a contrary study for the impact of cannabis on children, a long-term Jamaican study was done that followed children long-term whose mothers smoked marijuana heavily ( strong marijuana!) during pregnancy. Those children appeared to do BETTER on IQ tests and school performance than the children of mothers who abstained. Fewer behavioral problems, too. They tried to eliminate other cultural factors that might have caused this but was still left with a positive correlation. Who knows if it was the cannabis or something else. As I said, confounders are difficult to tease out even in a good correlation study.

But I agree about youths using marijuana recreationaly or even medically. It would have to be a serious medical condition, with some evidence that marijuana helped, before I, as a parent, would consider this.

But realize that few studies like this have yet been performed for children taking antidepressants, ADHD drugs, etc., long term. It's possible that subtle detrimental effects might occur from the long-term use of these drugs in developing children. Unfortunately, the political pressures are there to do these longitudinal studies only for drugs like cannabis.

I'd feel better, because of this, of putting a child long-term on cannabis than, say, Ritalin. But I would hate doing either unless it was truly necessary.

It's kind of funny. This thread was started about Botox - a deadly poison we are considering shooting into our muscles to paralyze them. Which I believe CAN be done safely without long-term negative effects. I would certainly do it if it worked for me with hardly a thought.

Nobody here has said that cannabis is as safe as drinking water. But it sure seems to be extremely safe compared to the drugs we routinely use on ourselves and our children. Perspective is needed when listening to the shrill statements of the National Institute of Drug Awareness you mentioned.

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Post  Migrainegirl Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:40 pm

I'd feel better, because of this, of putting a child long-term on cannabis than, say, Ritalin. But I would hate doing either unless it was truly necessary.

All - It's been an interesting discussion on MJ. Lots of good information. I agree with the general conclusions on the lack of data showing problems from this drug, with the exception of IQ issues for those using it heavily in adolescence. This agrees with other research I've read on the topic.

But while we are on the subject of medical myth debunking, I'll take issue with crack at Ritalin. The research shows that for kids with ADHD, they do much better in school and are much better adjusted than those who remain untreated. The rate of incarceration and later drug abuse is also much high for those who go untreated. Proper treatment of ADHD with drugs like Ritalin and Adderall have a huge positive impact on the kids lives.

As parents we have to think long and hard about decisions like these, but as a parent of a child with severe ADHD I can tell you I looked into the research and made the decision to give my daughter Ritalin in grade school. It was the best decision I ever made. The situation went from intolerable to actually having a fighting chance. She was much more able to act in appropriate ways in school and at home. (3 hour temper tantrums she could not control over minor issues became a thing of the past.) At no time was she drugged or a zombie. It does not work that way. Today, she is in graduate school. She still struggles with focus and attention, but is motivated to do well. Had I not provided her with Ritalin as a child, there is no way she would be succeeding and happy today.

There is so much misinformation out there on the effects if this drug it's amazing, if it wasn't so sad. I can only say, this is one of those areas where it's best to reserve judgement until you've walked a mile in the others shoes.
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