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Dreadful shooting in Cumberland England.

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Post  pen Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:29 pm

I am sure this will make the news both sides of the pond.
This man has how almost 40 people on a 3 hours period in Cumberland.
12 of them were killed. He then went on to shoot himself in nearby woods.

Cumberland is part of what we call "The Lake District". It is in the North West of our country.
It is a quiet area and a little further inland is quite a tourist attraction for the "lakes" and the "mountains".

My family originally come from Cumberland and I have some still living just a few miles from where this occurred.
Thankfully as far as I can determine, he did not go to their village or town.

I cannot imagine what the friends and family of the victims must be feeling.
Counselling is being organised for the attending medics.

It is only 2 weeks since a bad coach crash in the same area killed 3 school children.
There was also a bad train crash in winter before last.

Cumberland is getting more than it's share of tragedy.


Last edited by pen on Wed Jun 02, 2010 3:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post  Hal Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:53 pm

How dreadful. Here in Oklahoma, I would like to think someone would have shot the shooter long before he got to 40. I think about these people that do such things and then kill themselves. I wonder what they think when they wake up in Hell. If this guy was shooting for three hours, where were the police?

We have "Drive-by" shootings almost on a daily basis and people are just plain tired of it. The police can only make a report after the fact. People here are arming themselves. It is becomming unsafe for the bad guys and that is just fine with me.

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Post  pen Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:17 pm

They were apparently pursuing him Hal.
He was a taxi driver and was driving around just shooting people out of the window they are saying.
He shot at people in one villager and then drove on to another, seemingly at random.

The police didn't catch him and it is not sure why as yet.
But remember out police are not armed.
So I imagine they would have had to get in armed police.
This is a quiet country area and would have had to get them in from bigger towns....none nearby.

The story is still unfolding, but I hope the story will become clearer soon.

Guns or no guns, you cant stop the bad guys it seems.

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Post  alli Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:20 pm

How awful. I have no words for how wrong this is.
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Post  Hal Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:31 pm

Pen,

I understand. It really doesn't make any difference what the law says about guns, the bad guys always have guns and lots of them. I did hear something this morning about the taxi cab driver, but did not realize what the whole story was or where he was. Probably be more on the news tonight. What a waste of life. It is beyond me what is in these peoples heads that they would take out their hatered on innocent, random individuals.

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Post  pen Wed Jun 02, 2010 2:34 pm

It is quite awful, we are all shocked and saddened.
There is a bit of the news here on You tube if you care to catch up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K__n21RLz0&feature=player_embedded#!

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Post  Brent Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:37 pm

That is so very horrible to hear about. There is always going to finger pointing in a situation like this but I hope someday we can find out what makes someone snap like that. And then work harder at preventing it. I can almost guarantee they will interview his neighbors and work mates who will say something along the lines of "He was a nice quiet guy and pretty much kept to himself".

And then there will be one or two family members that knew he had some issues but they never thought much about it or ever figured he would do something like this.

This type of tragedy has to be prevented. You can ban guns, put up security fences, post armed guards, have security cameras, public awareness etc. but it will never stop these mass killings.

Men are not very good at asking for help, it's perceived as a sign of weakness and they feel very vulnerable. But it seems society continues to stay in denial and refuses to change the status quo. So we continue to have to see these horrendous tragedies because society refuses to do anything to prevent it.

I have a very personal experience with this. To have something horrendous happen to you and no one gives a shit. The entities that are supposed to help refuse or are unable to. And already trying to deal with migs on top of it. Everyone has a breaking point.

I never condone violence against innocent people. But I know very, very well how someone can get to this state of mind.

And it will keep on happening over and over again. The news media gets far better ratings covering tragedies then doing segments on what triggers them. I tried to get my local news media involved with my situation and the catch 22 I fell into. Not one was even mildly interested in the story.

If society is going to bury their heads under the sand they better do it deep enough so they don't hear the gunshots.
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Post  pen Wed Jun 02, 2010 4:49 pm

Indeed Brent, nice guy, quiet....you know the profile.
He was divorced with two sons. Just become a grandfather.

Was fine the previous day, but looked straight through his neighbours this morning.
They are saying that one of the people he killed was his brother and the shootings started with another taxi driver he had an argument with this morning, and then he just drove off and shot a man cutting his garden hedge...then just carried on for almost 3 hours randomly shooting people.

I'm so sorry to hear you too have a story Brent.
I have a cousin who came to me for help when I was practising.
I don't imagine he would have gotten a gun, but he had already beaten up his wife and some so called friends before he stormed out and arrived on my doorstep. That outburst was fuelled by alcohol, but it had been simmering inside for quite a while.
I was able to help, it was difficult, we grew up together, but it worked. He trusted me.
That was 20 years ago. He no longer drinks and is quite a new man with his second wife.
I truly think he was a disaster waiting to happen.

We will possibly never know what lit the fuse with this fella. His death toll has risen to 13 now.
But they will focus on how he got the guns, if he had a licence....not the things which matter as you say.

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Post  Brent Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:06 pm

I remember some time ago a lady in Las Vegas snapped and mowed down over a dozen people on a side walk with her car. And about ten years ago a war vet with a number of medical problems snapped. He stole a tank from the National Guard armory and went on a rampage. He was eventually shot and nobody else was injured by he destroyed over a $1 mil of property. He was most likely heading towards the veterans hospital and if he made it I am sure several people would have died.

So I get frustrated when the focus is on what they used versus WHY it happened. There are a thousand people breaking the branches of the tree of evil for every one that is striking the root.
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Post  CluelessKitty Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:26 pm

Oh, how terrible, horrific tragedy. I hope they will catch him before anything else bad will happen.
Indeed most cases like that are of someone snapping mentally. Some people just can not bear anything anymore,
for some reason. With devastating results for so many people Sad

I am so sorry Pen, and hope things will slowly go back to normal as soon as possible for you and your community.

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Post  tecky Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:08 am

Brent wrote:So I get frustrated when the focus is on what they used versus WHY it happened. There are a thousand people breaking the branches of the tree of evil for every one that is striking the root.

Brent, you hit the nail on the head. More attention needs to be paid to getting to the root of the problems causing these situations and then resources provided to give help towards prevention or healing.
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Post  pen Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:30 am

Despite the reports yesterday, the death toll is 12 not 13 and the injured has now become 11, not 25.
Doesn't lessen what has happened, but a few less tragedies.

One of the victims was his twin brother.....
He shot no children, although he encountered some.
Most of his victims were older.
The injured see to mainly have facial injuries.

The guns used were licensed to him.
He has never been to jail and has no history of mental problems.....

Still unbelievable. These poor people, I forgot to mention the dreadful floods they went through in the winter as well.
It is my Mother's family's homeland after they left Ireland.....
Anyway, just to put the record straight, so far.

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Post  Ivy Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:41 am

I read it in the news this morning.
Shocking....
Sometimes the world scares me
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Post  pen Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:09 am

Just heard a young man from my town was one of the ones killed yeserday.
He went to Cumbria to become an estate agent. Aged 23.

His parents were winners on the lottery 2 years ago.

Feels very close now even though I dont know him.
My kids know people who do.

P

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Post  WitsEnd Thu Jun 03, 2010 1:55 pm

Wow Pen, that is a little too close to home, isn't it?

I've been following it on BBC news website yesterday and today. I will never understand the people that do these things. If he wanted to die, then fair enough, go ahead and do it. BUT to take so many innocent people with you... I just can't comprehend that.

He even shot dead his own TWIN BROTHER.

There really are no words.
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Post  pen Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:15 pm

I feel so bad for the people of Cumberland.
Train crash.
Floods
Coach Crash
and now this.

My cousin's hotel in Workington was subject to an arson attack a few weeks ago.
So on a personal lever, one more thing.

Its a really nice part of the country as well.

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Post  CluelessKitty Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:18 pm

Oh My God- I just read in our local newspaper that "Birdie' - the man who went over the edge and on shooting rampage, actually at one point before went to seek help for his mental instability at a hospital,
but was turned away!
I hope that will be investigated.

http://www.theprovince.com/news/dead+injured+shooting+rampage+Britain/3101765/story.html

Bird is then believed to have sought medical help at a local hospital for his fragile mental state, only to be turned away.

Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/dead+injured+shooting+rampage+Britain/3101765/story.html#ixzz0pqJ3Fc8


ahhhh how awful, more so if that tragedy could have been prevented had the hospital staff acted accordingly.

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Post  Brent Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:46 pm

The system is broken and it seems society just looks away.
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Post  CluelessKitty Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:53 pm

I wonder if among killed were any relatives of the hospital workers?

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Post  Hal Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:42 pm

The other day driving on the Interstate Hiway, some guy was trying to keep me from passing him. When I finally went around him, he raced up beside me and pulled a gun and pointed it at me. I got his license number and called the cops and they finally caught him. Not sure what I would have done if he had started shooting.

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Post  Brent Thu Jun 03, 2010 10:50 pm

Most men don't get psychiatric help on their own even when they know they have a problem. It's usually a judge, a pending divorce, pending loss of a job or a suicide attempt that forces them to get help.

Here we have someone that appears to have sought out help and then refused. That is a major problem and until it's fixed people are going to die.

Men need to be more responsible in that situation and it's no excuse for violence. But there is still such a very heavy social stigma that they will appear weak and vulnerable. So they internalize it and use unhealthy and dangerous means to cover and cope with it. And that only works for while and then they blow up.

That is the nature of the beast. For a very long time in human history their survival hinged on not showing weakness or vulnerability.

There are certainly more resources for help now then fifty years ago. And there is some public awareness put out in the media now. But it's painfully obvious it's not enough and not even close.

With my own personal experience that became painfully obvious. I was fortunate enough to have a strong wife and a good circle of support from close friends. Even then I was only a heart beat away from "snapping".

So now I see things in a very horrible new and different light. I am very surprised these types of tragedies don't happen a whole lot more.
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Post  CluelessKitty Fri Jun 04, 2010 7:46 pm

Jesus Christ Hal!!! what a nightmare, and thank God nothing happened to you.
not to paint all doom and gloom picture but
I don't see what much could you have done once he started shooting. I think we all should thank your lucky stars
that you managed to out -maneuver him! shudder..

Brent - you are so right and on the spot. I am not 100% sure, but I think it's safe to suspect that vast majority of shooting rampages was done by men, also most of whom like you say probably went over the edge.
You are right men are still taught to "be men", plus yes seeking psychiatric help is still stigmatized, no matter what.
It is not as much as it was say even 10 years ago, let alone 20, 50 but still is.

You go to psychiatrist, you can kiss many forms of insurance good bye, work opportunities goodbye, univerisity college entries goodbye. I found out by accident when my daughter friend got depressed and needed to go to hospital for treatment. Well if not completely goodbye, they can sure as heck make it very very difficult for you to get into jobs and programs you want.
It can be as innocent as those questions among many "have you been ever treated for any psychiatric problems in the past?"... and then you get a letter in the mail stating "we are awfully sorry, but..." and you'll never guess you were rejected because years ago you were treated for depression.

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Post  tecky Fri Jun 04, 2010 10:14 pm

CluelessKitty wrote:You go to psychiatrist, you can kiss many forms of insurance good bye, work opportunities goodbye, univerisity college entries goodbye. I found out by accident when my daughter friend got depressed and needed to go to hospital for treatment. Well if not completely goodbye, they can sure as heck make it very very difficult for you to get into jobs and programs you want.
It can be as innocent as those questions among many "have you been ever treated for any psychiatric problems in the past?"... and then you get a letter in the mail stating "we are awfully sorry, but..." and you'll never guess you were rejected because years ago you were treated for depression.
Risa

Shouldn't that be illegal under the equal employment opportunities act (I don't know, just asking)? flower
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Post  CluelessKitty Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:19 am

Not necessarily. First, they don't always have to say on what grounds you are rejected,
second if you were a manager of an institution and all the liability was on you, would you have to hire a nurse knowing she may have had psychiatric issues in the past?

ps - I mean- all you did, in the past you ONCE was seeking help for your depression because say your parents were divorcing.
still it counts as "seeking psychiatric help". to the potential employer, who knows - maybe that means you will break under pressure and go postal...? he doesn't want to found out.

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Post  pen Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:32 am

Derek Bird is believed to have been in financial trouble and had a grudge against his solicitor and his brother and mother regarding this. His killing spree lasted just over 1 hour not 3 as originally reported and 11 died and 11 injured, so those figures reported wrong too. The two guns he had he held licence for and this is causing consternation because he had a conviction for theft.

No hospital workers relatives were hurt as far as reporting has said.

The suggestion he sought help and was turned away is at the moment a rumour.
I havent seen the latest news, my head is bad, but perhaps that will be denied or confirmed later.
He had been drinking in the days before the attack though said his friend.

It is unfolding, but our local boy is gone and many others, and lessons must be learned.
Here is the latest which might help our understanding...it seems the love of money really is the route of evil
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284103/CUMBRIA-SHOOTINGS-Derrick-Bird-held-grudge-twin-robbing-25-000-inheritance.html

BTW, and this was on the TV here in our "This Week" programme.
In the UK men get just as much help as women with mental problems, but the difficulty is said to be in getting men to come forward. But probably because of our NHS our system is different to yours. To be honest in my experience it is women that get neglected here.

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