A difficult story to tell (but one I think I ought to share)

The other day I got the latest newsletter from my high school, which was a Christian high school, and they talked about their chapels, which are sort of like church services, which involve a speaker talking about some Christian topic and Christian music. At high schools, they're usually once a week and a way of trying to address issues that teenagers are dealing with and not just the generic issues that the pastor in a church would talk about, since he or she is addressing all ages. It's also a means of trying to create more unity among the students, as they all meet together to hear the same speaker.

After reading the article, I began to wonder if I God was leading me to volunteer myself to talk to the current students at my high school. At first, I thought about the migraine issue and how I was on the fast-track to "success." I was even voted most likely to succeed. (On an ironic side note, the guy who shared that with me suggested we dress in shorts and a t-shirt for our picture in the yearbook because his idea of success was not having to wear a suit. I found him on FB a year ago and told him that by that measure of success I'm pretty successful, since I live in PJs all the time. He agreed that he is awfully successful too, as he is a professional writer and wears PJs to write most of the time too!)

But the migraines changed all measure of success in my life and forced me to look inward, at success meaning that I am being the best person I can be and not being based upon my accomplishments.

If I do talk to them, I will probably bring this up, but something else spoke to my heart later, and it rather scares me. I don't like the idea of having to talk about this publicly, as it is so personal, but it occurred to me that it is probably something really needed.

As probably all of you know, Christians place a huge emphasis on waiting until marriage to have sex. This is especially drilled into teens at church and at Christian schools. The way it is treated, you would almost think that to have sex before marriage is to commit the unforgiveable sin. It was a huge scandal at my school if a girl got pregnant (which probably led to a number of them having abortions when they might have given birth otherwise). Usually the girl (and boy, if he went to the school) got kicked out altogether, but if she expressed enough remorse, she might be allowed in, but have her privileges deeply cut. I think that is a stupid policy for several reasons. I don't know if this is based upon research of just anecdotal evidence, but I have read that Catholic schools have a higher rate of abortions among their students than public or non-religious private schools. Plus, it makes one sin seem so much worse than another, when the Bible clearly teaches that all sins are wrong, and to break one is to break them all. The only way that certain sins are deemed worse is if they affect other people more, such as murder.

So that's the background. I never dreamed that I would be one of the "evil ones" who would lose her virginity before marriage, but it happened, just before I turned 19. We didn't intend to sleep together; one thing just led to another, and it happened. We were both devastated, as we thought that only "evil, awful, terrible people" ever had sex outside of marriage. So we went to one of the pastors at our church and asked for counseling. We were told yes, but that they would contact us, not the other way around. We waited and waited, to no avail.

In the meantime, I particularly fell to pieces. I couldn't stop crying and even learned that if you cry too much, you can dry out your skin, and it looks like you have a sunburn. Fortunately, I went to undergrad in Costa Mesa, right next to Newport Beach, so people just assumed that I had spent a lot of time at the beach. I couldn't talk about it at school either because I went to a Christian college, where I could have been kicked out for having had premarital sex. And we kept waiting for our pastors to help us. We also gave in to our bodies several more times, which just made things worse because we really thought we were horrible people. And then I skipped a period, which made me even more scared, despite the negative pregnancy test. I think it was all the stress I experienced from all the guilt.

Finally, we turned to a very caring married couple at our church, who mentored us and helped us stop sleeping together and helped us understand that what we had done was a sin, but no worse than any other sin we had ever committed, such as lying. My life was starting to get back on the right track.

And then, six months later, one of the pastors of the church (not the pastor we told) asked me to visit him at his office, and out of the blue, he told me that I was required to break up with my then-boyfriend. He said that even though we had stopped sleeping together, once you do it once, you will never stop, so the only solution is to get married immediately, something we weren't in a position to do, or break up. He was really harsh about it too. He told me that if I didn't obey him, I would be forced to leave the church!

Obviously, this is completely against the Bible. The Bible is about forgiveness, not about continually blaming you for past wrongs. But that is what the pastor was doing. So I decided to leave that church before they could kick me out.

And that started me on a year of hating God, blaming him for the sins of another (the pastor). I went back to sleeping with my ex-boyfriend, and he became abusive to me, both emotionally and sexually. He would tell me that if I didn't do such and such an act, I would have to leave the house because he didn't think he could hold himself back. I was so tied to him, having been cut off from my friends when I left the church and by my ex-boyfriend, that I was afraid to leave for fear of having no one. That's the classic abuser's story.

His other method would be to do something bad to me and then, when I'd be upset at him for it, he would act so upset at himself, making it seem worse than how I had portrayed him, so I would give in and tell him that it wasn't quite as bad as that. That was how he got me to pass over such things as date-raping me a couple times. (Years later, he called me to "apologize," but he tried the same games with me, saying that he could never look himself in the mirror because of how bad he felt at how he treated me. I told him that was his problem!)

It took breaking up with the jerk (which I did with the support of some friends) and the further support of other Christian friends to reconcile myself with God again. I came to realize that it wasn't God who did all those things to me; it was sinful people.

I can't say that I have never had sex since then. I have. But I have asked God's forgiveness and gotten it and moved past that.

I suspect though that a lot of Christian teenagers have never heard that message of forgiveness before. They have had so many people drill into their brains that it's such a terrible thing to have sex before marriage that they don't know how to deal with it when they do. And they do have sex. Statistics show that Christians are no less likely to have sex before marriage than non-Christians. Just from my own personal experience, I know many friends who felt the same guilt and condemnation for premarital sex that I felt. But they didn't know who to ask for help in getting rid of the guilt because it is such a taboo.

I remember telling my parents the general outlines of this story (leaving out the abuse I suffered from my ex) after I had returned to Christ. I felt that they ought to know what had happened. It wasn't their church that had done this to me, as I had been going to a different church in college. But even then, my mom in particular had such a stigma against anyone who had premarital sex that she couldn't even look at me for a while. And she refused to discuss the matter for years after. Only in recent years has it come up at all, but she is still very uncomfortable with it.

So you can see how scary the prospect can be for me to share such an intimate story of mine. Yet if only someone had been brave enough to share their own similar story when I was a teen, I might have not had to go through all that I did. Normally, I love public speaking, but this is a difficult topic to share.

I'm not totally sure why I wanted to write about it here, unless it's just to talk about the story somewhere safe. One irony is that the church that kicked me out has moved and now shares part of their campus with my high school's new facilities! I obviously won't be naming the church, but I just pray that their chapel services aren't in that church's sanctuary! It wasn't where I went to the church, but the association may be a little too hard to handle!

Be gentle in your comments, please! This was a hard story to tell and one I've told in its entirety only once or twice before. Several people knew about the church detail, but very few knew that my ex raped me (I mentioned it to my last boyfriend, the one who was so very good to me, but he couldn't understand at all. He judged me for not calling the police. But how could I? I was so under his thumb that I couldn't act for myself. Besides, I didn't have any evidence that it wasn't consensual. We had been kissing, but I told him no more than that. How could I prove that I hadn't gone along with the rest?)

Thanks for listening to me!

Vicki,

Wow sweetie I am at a loss for words at what you went through. Thank you for feeling comfortable enough to be able to share such a personal story with us. I am so sorry that you had to go through something like that, especially with someone you cared about and trusted, and then having the Pastor of your Church turn on you like he did - that had to be hard on you at such a young age.

I too grew up in a Christian home. Not to the extent that you did, meaning didn't go to a Christian or Catholic school. But, I had to go to Church every Sunday, and of course, sex before marriage was a complete sin.

Because of that, when I was 18 and had my first real boyfriend, he and I did have sex. My luck though, I got pregnant. But because it was such a no no. I denied that I was pregnant. Denied it to myself that is. At that time I was living with my grandmother. She told my mother that she had not seen any signs of my periods. The whole 4 or 5 mths I had been having lots of bleeding and pain, and denied that. Well, the night my mom confronted me I told her that I was but by then it was too late. I went into labor, she rushed me to the ER and I had to give birth and my baby was stillborn. He was 5 mths old.

I guess I mention this because now although I strongly believe in God, I am more of a spiritual person. I feel that there are too many hypocrites going to church where I live. Just to say they go to church. Then they come home, cheat on their spouses, lie, and do things that they should not be doing. They are not Christians in my book. I believe if you are a good person, live a good life, give back to your community, help others, etc., then you don't necessarily have to go to church to prove it.

Sorry, didn't mean to go off the subject. But Vicki I do agree with you about young teens needing people like you to talk to them about those types of issues. Especially someone who has gone through them. It sounds to me like you are a very compassionate, honest, caring, understanding, loving woman. In my opinion, I would say go for it. You do have something to offer them and in today's world, these young adults need it.

Best of luck sweetie. Lots of hugs!!

Vicky,

Sex between consenting adults is neither a sin, nor a crime. The urge to reproduce and pass on our immortal genes is what drives every living being on this planet. It should be celebrated and not demonized. What a miserable git this pastor was for trying to break up a young couple in love.

You seem to be such a lovely warm person and do not deserve to be guilt tripped into all this stuff. Follow your instinct about what is truly right or wrong and don't let anybody manipulate you or make you feel guilty.

P.

Vicki,

I sent you a PM related to this. I understand where you are coming from and how someone could have such a narrow stance - depends on the "flavor" of Christian.

I also understand how you were trapped in that relationship. My best friend has been embroiled in that. He was (is?) at least physically abusive and it was hard to watch her go through it and all I could do was to support her and try to show her doors to escape. Sadly she's still in the same relationship but I know that they have their ups and downs and she's not afraid to kick his sorry butt to the curb (she's done it more times than I can count but always takes him back). Part of her issue is they have a child together and I don't know if that's part of why she can't get rid of him for good.

Petzi - part of the difference is the "religion"/belief system you were raised with. I see your point but I was raised in a similar way to Vicki and know some of what she's gone through.

I would remind anyone else that responds to this to be sensitive to others beliefs as this is one of those topics that walks the religion/faith/belief line. I'm not trying to tell others how to do things but this is one of those topics that could blow up and to please not pass judgment on what someone else believes but to phrase it that you see it a certain way and not that someone else is wrong. No one can argue with what you believe but to tell someone that their beliefs are wrong is just asking for conflict.

I wanted to lend Vicky my support. After all she reached out here on this public forum for support. I respect your right to disagree with me, but I am entitled to freely express my opinions and views. You are right I was brought up in a different believe system. I was brought up to form independent opinions on the basis of my own reason and experience. I do not allow myself to be led blindly by others and I question everything and those in a position of authority in particular.



P.

Petzi, I never stated that I think that sex outside of marriage is a crime, but I do think it is wrong. But I'm not going to tell people who aren't Christians and who don't share my belief system not to do it. One of my best friends is an agnostic, and I listen to her stories of the various men she sleeps with, sometimes in relationships and sometimes as one-night-stands. But just based upon my own experiences, I think that there are consequences of sex outside of marriage. Future relationships can be affected, as I know later boyfriends were often jealous of earlier ones, and frankly, I think it would have been much more special for me when I finally find the man I will marry, if I had waited for him.

Vicky,

I have a different belief system so it is difficult for me to comment in that respect.

However, I very much admire your willingness to tell a difficult story in order to help other people. I am also touched that you feel so close to us that you can share your innermost life experiences.

I think it is better to be in a stable and loving relationship before you decide to have sex with somebody, but to me it doesn't matter if you are married or not. I am also not a fan of sleeping around. I have been with my husband for 14 years now. We are devoted to each other and both have been completely faithful to each other. I am sure the two of us will grow old together.

I thought your pastor’s reaction was spiteful and mean. He could have handled the situation more along the lines of what he preaches, i.e. forgiveness.

What you went trough with your ex-boyfriend is truly harrowing and no woman should ever have to go through that. I hope you are able to leave this behind you at some point in your life and come out stronger at the other end.

Big hug,

Petzi

Vicki, The way I see things now is that those who are constantly judging others have way more to hide. So they are just covering up for their sin by judging you. I to have dealt with jerks in churches, pastors, etc. I believe that there just a lot of people who go to church but deceive themselves into thinking that they are"saved." Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to dealing with stupid people in church.

I haven`t gone to church in awhile because of things like this. Really, who wants to be around self-rightous and uncaring people... I don`t think everybody is this way but the majority of the church is.I see so many issues at church that they just avoid dealing with. The usual answers are, "we are not a perfect church," "this is the way people are," " nobody is perfect." Unfortunatley, I don`t see anything changing.

Thank you for sharing that story, Vicki. Beleif systems that are firmly inplace, whether others agree or not, are diffucult to overcome when you 'break' them and harder yet to come into peace with them. Premarital sex and religion aside, to me it rings of you being swept up amoungst a bunch of bullies for a time. Now that you are out of it, I hope you can come to peace within yourself and know that there are no mistakes if you are not acting out of anger or malice to hurt another. (including yourself) Forgiveness starts with yourself.

Angela

having grown up in a christian home i can understand a lot of your points. there is a fantastic book out by rt kendall called totally forgiving ourselves. life trans forming as is the the book the shack. if you go on f.b please feel free to contact me and we can talk more.xx

Jesus taught that God Forgives us for our sins. Anyone, priest, pastor, minister whoever who does not understand this basic tenet of Christianity has lost their right to tell any of us what to do or how to live our lives.

I was raised Catholic, going to Catholic schools through High School. The one thing that sticks with me even now was when a Nun told me that when you are hurt or injured it is God punishing you for something you did wrong. At this time I was being sexually abused by my uncle. You can only imagine the guilt I felt trying to figure out what I did wrong as an 8yr old, that God was punishing me like this. Thankfully, I got over that by the time I was 16 or so, but the damage was done. I still consider myself Christian in that I believe in Jesus and his message of LOVE but my faith in organized religion was irreparably damaged.

I am almost in tears as I write this because even now I can't understand why someone would say something like this to a kid, especially when you have no idea what might be going on in their life. I believe that God loves us and since He is the one who made us human with human shortcomings, he fully expects us to sin. The challange we have, is to recognize our sins, ask forgiveness, and then do our best not to repeat our mistakes.

The people who are positions of power within our churches who don't understand this are not worth listening to. Listen to the ones who understand Jesus's sacrifice and the message he really said, not the perversions that have unfortunately made it into too many of our churches.

I don't know you at all Vicki, but your wish to reconcile your personal beliefs and your churches teachings and actions reminds me so much of the many conversations I have with a good friend who was raised in the Catholic faith.

Her yearning, longing, heartbreak, in trying to reach this reconciliation has at times almost destroyed her as I think from your post, at times it has tried to destroy you.

My advise to her has always boiled down to this.

In most religions, the actual writing of texts relating to how a particular religion chooses to teach its followers took place many hundreds of years after events and situations to place. Many teachings were put in place to cope with situations of the time of writing. eg many dietary rules are based on worms in the animal populations of the time. Nothing more, nothing less. Religions change their rules. Instead of Latin, the Catholic church now allows the local language to used. Very contensious at the time, but now nothing out of the ordinary. Translations and interpretations have been confused and befuddled.

This isn't the reason why you as an individual need to decide in your own mind what is right and what is wrong. But it certainly adds to the reasons why you should.

To me questioning is in no way a loss of faith. This is an examination of one's self. To blindly follow and believe teaches us nothing.

You are trying to reconcile your past and to me, this is a step along this path of growth and acknowlegment of the good and evil that exists every day around us.

Unfortunately the evil seems to turn up in places you least expect, but fortunately so does the good.

So most importantly accept: having faith and questioning a rule are two entirely seperate issues. Your faith is strong, stop feeling guilty about questioning the rule.

Hi, Vicki.

I just wanted to say thanks for sharing your experiences with us. That took a lot of bravery. I'm glad you are out of the bad relationship now. I'm glad you are still strong in your faith.

Vicki,

My beliefs are very different from yours. However, I think you are a very honest, ethical person and I admire you for that. I appreciate your bravery in coming forward the way you did. I am also very sad about the horrible way you were treated by people who supposedly cared about you.

I hope that your life from this point forward will be happier that it has been lately. I hope that all the wounds will heal and that you will find what you seek.

Love,
Chris

Vicki,
you must have suffered a lot for what happened and for the way things were managed by the people who should have loved and guided you. That pastor was not exactly an example and your ex was a jerk.

As you know, I live in a very Catholic country, I'd rather say THE Catholic Country.
Last year, I followed a preparation course to marriage held by the church. It's mandatory if you want to get married under the Catholic ritual.
Sex and reproduction was one of the topic that the priest, helped by a group of Catholics attending his church, faced with us for an entire night.

Well, you'll probably feel buffled, but the MODERN position of the church is very open with sex before marriage. It's no longer seen as a sin. It's considered as one of expressions of the love between two people and it's considered a beautiful thing.
You will probably not believe this, but the Church no longer consider sex aimed solely to reproduction. They now believe that a child must be conceived when the couple is ready.
The priest invited a catholic doctor to our meeting. He explained in details how the woman cycle works, how reproduction chemically happens and he also presented and scientifically explained the natural contracceptive methods the Church sponsorises.

Of course the Church will never agree with certain contracceptive methods and especially with abortion, but this is coeherent with the position towards life in general.

I won't tell you what I think about dogmas as I understand that our positions are too far, but I wanted to let you know that there are more open positions today in the Christian world. We live in the 21st century and maybe something coming directly from the Middle Ages can be reviewed and re-considered.....

Take care

Ivy,

Thanks for the enlightening post. Much of my family is Catholic and I have many Catholic friends. The Catholic church here does not see things the way your does. I was rather surprised to read what you had to say just because I know here, that married women are not supposed to use any form of contraception (no birth control pills, condoms, etc). A friend that was going through marriage counseling with the Catholic church was told that the only acceptable methods were those that involved no outside forces - can't think of what it was called but that you knew where you were in your cycle and abstained from sex on those days that you were fertile. She also wasn't supposed to be sleeping with her fiance but didn't clue the priest into that either. Lots of omissions because she wanted to be married in the Church.

Interesting to see what may be heading across the water though. And I will say that while the Catholic church may be okay with it, I know faiths similar to mine would have a huge problem with it.

Howdy Vicki My Friend,

I am not going to discuss sexual ethics. You are a bright and intelligent woman and have made your own decisions. I also believe that because of biology, the sexual experience is so very different between men and women that I choose not to comment on sexual ethics to women. Or to most anyone for that matter.

As far as discussing your sex life with your Mother, my daughter and I institued a "don't ask, don't tell" policy regarding our personal sexual activites years ago. Such a plicy has worked quite well for generations in my family and we choose not to change that policy. All through her life I offered her age appropriate sexual information - education. In high school, one drawer of her bathroom cabinet was always filled with lots and lots of condoms - for her to give to any of her friends that wanted or needed them. I kept that drawer REAL full and insisted that she share with friends so that I would NOT know about HER sexual activities. It worked for us - and there were zero unwanted pregnancies among her large circle fo friends and all their friends.

But it seems to me you are not asking about sexual morality (fascinating post Ivy - thanks) but rather are asking "what risk is there in sharing your testimony with high school students in 2010 at a private Christian School?" or "Ought you choose this topic to speak about with a group of high school students at a Christian School?"

Here is my take on those questions:

1. Use Good Manners: you are WELL aware that many believers who administer, teach at, have children at that school have dearly held beliefs about sexual activity outside of marriage - or even inside marriage in may cases. Dearly held beliefs that they are willing to use to judge others and to have conflicts with others about - especially other women, especially teenagers. Walk gently in someone's else's orchard.

I advise that you do NOT surprise the administration with a speech on pre-marital sex. The push-back for the school and for the teens' parents would be horrendous if you sand bagged the school with a speech along the lines of your original post. I predict phone calls, insults, letters, sermons - a huge deal. AND I am not so worried about you - what a strong and lovely woman you are. BUT you live with your parents. You have the obligation of good manners to get THEIR permission for this speech because THEY will get feedback. If you did not live with them and love them so much, it would be different ... but think of the impact on Mom and Dad and get their permission BEFORE you speak.

AND speak with the school principal BEFORE you give this speech. We are talking about minor children with loving parents. Those parents believe THEY have the right to teach their kids what THEY want their kids to know about sexual ethics. Frankly, as much as I disagree with what I believe they are teaching their kids, they DO have that right. If I want the right to teach my daugher as I choose - I have to give other parents the same right. So it would be horrific manner to sand bag the school with this speech - get permission first.

2. What is the ESSENCE of your message? It seems to me that what you wish to convey to the young folk is not anything to do with sexual ethics - you agree with your faith community's prohibition on sexual relations outside of marriage. Your message is about judgement and forgiveness.

Forgiving oneself is a topic of discussion with teenagers. When any of us falls short of our OWN ethical standards, we need to make amends and to forgive ourselves so we can live on. The process you have gone through for self forgiveness is not only interesting, but I would also love to have any teenager hear it, Only I believe that the "sex part" may get in the way of your central message.

Were I to give your speech, I would downplay the personal sexual history and stress the forgiveness - especially the process you used for self forgiveness. AND I would throw a whole lot more non-sexual examples into the mix.

As I see the speech and your testimony it is really this:

We are all human and as humans often fall short of our own and God's expectations for our behavior.

God and God alone is in a position to judge humans when they fall short.

When we fall short, it is right and right and proper and helpful to speak with learned elders and with our friends about what we have done and how best to make amends.

It is a good thing to make amends.

It is great thing to ACCEPT the forgiveness for God.

It is right and proper to learn from our short comings and try our best not to fall again.

You have a lot of experience in forgiveness as I read your post here on your sexual journey. So, my friend, even though I full heartedly disagree with our sexual ethical standards and I agree that the standards of your faith community lead to heartache and unplanned pregnancies and the horror of abortions ... I repect the heck out of you for sharing here and for being willing to stand up for your beliefs.

Strong woman! You go, girl!

It seems that in telling my whole story, I got lost in trying to convey the crux of what I would like to share with the students. That was one reason why I wanted to bring this up here, so I could see what people got out of the story. I think Richard got closest to what I want to talk about, and that is the forgiveness side of the story.

I'm not going to say that it is o.k. to have sex before marriage because I clearly believe that it is not beneficial. But I do want to say that I know that it is easy to give in to the body's desires, and that if you do, the thing to do is get back up and keep trying. You don't have to figure, as one roommate of mine did, that once she had lost her virginity, she was condemned forever, so she might as well keep doing it, even when she felt so guilty about doing so. God is eager to forgive.

I think I will leave out a lot of my own bad relationship experiences, except to say that by rejecting any church community (I could easily have found a better church when I got kicked out of the one hypocritical church and gotten support from the people there), it was too easy for my ex-boyfriend to isolate me, so I was more willing to give in to his abuse.

And I do want to say that I've been to a number of churches, and most aren't like that bad one. In fact, a week ago, when I managed to attend my own church, the pastor preached on how the devil will tempt you to sin, and then if you give in, he'll pummel you with guilt, saying, "Look at what you did! God can never use you again!" But that's not true. God will forgive anyone for anything they do. That fact was actually the biggest complaint that my Muslim ex-boyfriend had against CHristianity. He didn't like the fact that a murderer could be forgiven and allowed into heaven. But if that murderer truly repents and asks forgiveness, God will always say yes.

So I think you've helped me get more focused on my direction. I'll have to give more thought to how I'd structure this. Thanks for your feedback!

Many many years ago, in a land far far away (or so it feels) I received wonderful instruction in Roman Catholicism prior to my confimration in that faith community. I was reared Methodist and attended a Southern Baptist University where I received a degree in Religion (among other majors)

One thing I truly appreciate about the Roman Catholic belief community is their thinking on the mature conscience.

The Church taught (teaches?) that men and women have the responsibility to develop and follow a conscience in making ethical and moral decisions - and most decisions and life choices have an ethical - moral component.

But the Church teaches that the mature person will take certain rational steps in forming a mature conscience on any given issue. The mature person will:

A. Consult the teaching of the Church - this means studying what the Church fathers and mothers have to say on the subject - not only ethical studies and theology, but also life experiences. This step normally entails reading (or careful listening) of Church doctrine, what priests and respected Church folks have to say ... gaining a general knowledge of what the very smart and the very gifted in the heart folks have to say on the issue and how to live morally and lovingly.

B. Consult Scripture - but for Roman Catholics, this does not mean reading the Bible and taking it on face value. For Catholics, the Scripture must be read seriously - understanding context, understanding what the author was actually writing about - who the recipient of the Letter was, what issues the prophet was confronting, etc. Reading Scripture for the Catholic is a serious business - takes education and time and effort ... not just deciding for oneself what the English (or other vernacular) translators want one to think.

C. Obtaining Sacramental Grace to Understand - this is most often accomplished through the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession-penace). The belief is that through the Sacrament, God's Grace is freely bestowed to increase loving understanding of the heart.

D. Prayer - enough said

E. Determine the science and technology surrouding the issue. In contraception for example, a mature person will make life choices only after understanding the biology of the various forms of contraception. What does the pill do? What does the condom actually do (various latex vs sheepskin vs ??? effects on the human body) Etc. Just an example ... the goal is to learn the most up to date scientific information available - through study or through discussion with knowledgable others.

Once one understands what the Church teaches, what psychology-sociology-biologoy-etc says, what trusted loved ones and elders say, receives God's Grace through the Sacraments, and prays thoughtfully and with an open heart - then and only then can a mature person make a sound moral decision and develop a mature conscience.

AND if the faithful's mature moral decision is at odds with the current teaching of the Church, that in no way invalidates the "goodness" of the moral decision made. Read that sentence again - it is the crux of the matter.

Now, the Church and Community of Faithful may not support the moral position of the homosexual, woman seeking priesthood, unmarried person in intimate relationship - BUT the Church does not condemn the individual either ... IF they have made a mature and loving ethical decision. There is agreement to disagree within the loving family of the Catholic Church.

MY, how can I stress MY enough?, experience in the Baptist and Methodist faith communities is different. Scripture is approached differently by MOST of the faithful - they take the words at the meaning THEY give the words - they do not care what about context or Greek-Hebrew translations or anything. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is the example most often thrown in my face ... many ignore the fact that the Bible itself states what that story teaches - and it is NOT about homosexuality. The word "abomination" does not mean what most protestant believers thinks it means in Scripture. Just a few examples - the Christian Scripture is a rich source of great wisdom - but it is not easy wisdom to obtain.

And whereas in MY experience, the Baptist and Methodist faith communities stress the priesthood of the believer and the individual's relationship with God - in practice, the community is quick to judge one another and quick to shun. In Catholicism, the Church wants discipline and the faithful to pray and pay - BUT in practice there is great latitude for the individual's relationship with God - with OUT community judgement and shunning. Just MY experience and thinking.

But Vicki, you are definitely on a loving and giving track - the discussion of the process of forgiving oneself is something all people need to learn and practice. I wish you well.

I just love watching all you strong women make mature decisiions in tough circumstances. I stand in awe of you all.

HeelerLady,
I think that I did not explain it well.
The Church now accepts sex as a part of the love between a man and a woman, even outside the marriage and they no longer consider it only as an act aimed at reproduction.

This new position, of course, implies that sex can be made also for the pleasure of the couple and therefore they accept all those natural methods (Billings, Ogino-Knaus, basal temperature) that allow the couple to avoid pregnancy. The pill and the condom are a yes/no. Officially NO, but open-minded priests understand that there is nothing wrong...

I know that this sounds still like a limit, but I find that it's a BIG step forward.
At the course, we were all amazed to hear that we were not sinners because as fiancés we were having sex before marraige!!! We were all still reminding of our childhood when nurses and priests told us the meanest things about sex before marriage and waned us against sex only as exchange of love and affection between partners!!!

The church were I followed the course is not an exception. Most of my friends and colleagues have found the same opening in other towns/churches.

Ivy,

I understood what you meant. I was relating my own personal experiences here in the states and from the local Catholic churches. It may just be the area that I live in but the Catholic churches here are very conservative still. Don't quite understand that because the area is very liberal in their beliefs but I suppose one has to balance the other. The history here is heavy German Catholic or Lutheran with smatterings of Scandinavian Lutheran. It also may be that one religion doesn't accept certain views as a political measure to remain united in conservancy because the political climate is so liberal. Just speculation on my part...

Thanks for sharing though. Very interesting to see views from another part of the world (and can't get much closer to where the edicts - okay this isn't the right word but I'm on day 10 of nastiness and my brain is refusing to function - than where you are).

Right on target Richard. You are so wise and logical.

Chris

I again agree with you Richard. I too struggle with forgiving myself for things in my past, such as what I said when I responded to Vicki about denying the fact that I was pregnant after my first sexual experience. Mainly because of how I was raised and how I thought people would look at me and would talk about me.

I know especially being raised in the South, and being raised in a Baptist/Christian community and family, sex before marriage was totally frowned upon. Basically, you were considered an outcast. That is the hypocrisity (sp) that I have a hard time with. For me, there is only one "being" who sits in judgement.

Because of my experiences, my religious views have changed as I mentioned. But, I feel no one should be judged by what their religious beliefs, moral standards, sexuality, etc., are.

And Richard, you certainly do know how to make us women feel strong and feel good about ourselves. I can only speak for myself when I say this, but I stand in AWE of you!!

Hugs!