Violent Video Games and Kids

The United States Supreme Court accepted a case from my state of California this week. At issue is a state law (not yet enforced) that prohibits the sale and rental of violent video games to anyone under the age of 18. It is already illegal for sexual subject matter to be sold or rented to kids. California wants to add "extreme violence" to the list of prohibitions.

The opposition maintains that such prohibition infringes on the right to Free Speech and Freedom of Expression for the producers and the kids who enjoy extremely violent video games. They argue the rating system in place gives parents the control ... if a game is marked "M" then it is up to the parents to determine if the extreme violence is harmful or not for their kids.

I am mixed on this issue. I have always found depictions of extreme violence MUCH more disturbing than depictions of sexual acts. MUCH more disturbing.

AND I am concerned that the kids whom I love, really, really love these extremely violent video games. Playing "Grand Theft Auto," they will spend hours stealing cars, shooting people, running people over with cars, and bashing people's brains in. I have watched them play for a short time - they love it - AND the violence is extreme. One of their Dad's prohibits the games - but the other allows it. I would prohibit if I could because these kids need to be doing ANYTHING else other than sitting on the floor glued to the TV screen. But I have no say-so.

I find the extreme violence distasteful - BUT is it harmful to the kids?

When I was a kid - Jr High and High School - my brothers and buddies went to a "clay pit" in South Carolina for fun. There we would divide into teams and have wars - throwing lit firecrackers at one another. How violent and utterly stupid can you get! Yet, none of us grew up to be violent men. Not one. Maybe we got it out of our systems? I really don't know.

I read an expert explaining that kids these days get so much stimulation from video games, that real life is boring to them. I recently took a 12 year old boy (who lives for violent video games) to a live theater event - a very good production of "South Pacific." He was utterly bored. Fidgeted, squirmed ... was a real jerk ... and bored with live theater. I guess it paled compared to the stimulation of stealing cars and killing people. Really bothered me.

And it is not just musicals. This boy gets bored by ALL of real life. The expert said the kids' brains were so over stimulated with dopamine etc thru playing video games, that it took more and more to get them interested or non-bored.

BUT should the State supercede parental controls and prohibit the sale and rental of extremely violent games to kids? For that matter, should a nine year old boy be able to purchase Playboy or other pornography if HE wants AND his parents don't mind? Is the State correct in censoring the sexual content of magazines, websites, DVD's OR should that ONLY be the parents' role?

Interesting questions. What do YOU think? I have to admit that I do not see a clear answer for myself ... though I am proud that California took on the issue.

I just watched a program about violence (not video games, per se). It was about violence and the human brain. It seems we are wired for it. They showed a festival in a small town in South America where people hit one another in the street.

The rules are that you can only be paired up with someone of your own age and size. The psychiatrist or neurologist who was studying this said that dopamine (happy brain chemical) is released during this violence in the same way that it is released during drug use or sex.

I agree that these video games are bad for children and society. I don't believe it is a freedom of speech issue. Yet, the horse is out of the barn on this one. Prohibiting the making or selling of these games will only push them onto the black market and make them more enticing.

I remember taking my son to the video game store to rent a game. He wanted one that had an MA rating and I told him, "no". He was upset. He wanted to play that game. He kept pestering me so I said, "take it to the counter and ask the man if you can rent it". Of course, the man said he couldn't rent it without a parent's permission. Needless to say, my son survived the incident.

As far as how you played at the clay pit, Richard...it was foolish but it pales in comparison to the violence children are becoming immune to nowadays. While you and your friends may have been seriously hurt, these games inflict pain, harm and death every few seconds. It makes kids numb to it.

I don't know if a small boy would be interested in South Pacific. If this same kid couldn't sit still through Peter Pan or something geared more towards children, then you'd really have proof positive.

I've always been an avid gamer, so I might be a bit biased on the issue, but I think censoring or banning violent video games is completely unnecessary. I grew up playing them, and now I'm more of a pacifist then anyone I know. I've had conversations with people my age that never play games, and it's hard for them to understand how or why I wouldn't strike back at someone attacking me, or go after someone that said something insulting to me or a friend. Maybe I don't want real life to end up like the game's portrayal of violence, or maybe gaming has nothing to do with my perspective and it's something I chose on my own. Maybe it's because I let out all my aggression in the game, or something else entirely. Nonetheless, I still go home at the end of the day to the latest games violent or otherwise, and have been since video games were invented. I remember being more violent before games were invented then after, and I hear similar feelings from a lot of others growing up in this day and age.

I think that, just like any form of entertainment, it's an outlet more then some type of 'role model'. Any smart, decent kid is going to know there's a huge difference. I think the only time violent games have a negative effect is when something else triggered a negative outlook or frame of mind outside of the game, then portrayals of violence from any direction can steer a person towards making bad decisions.

I read an article a couple years ago that was studying the positive effects of gaming on children/adults. You rarely ever hear that side of the coin. The study was reflecting improved focus and efficiency in certain mundane tasks at work (like data entry for example) compared with the person's gaming preferences (i.e. interactive games requiring fast typing to other players to succeed). There were improved aspects of teamwork created by team-strategy games, like Call of Duty or the Battlefield series where you fight as a team for an objective. There was also obvious improvements in hand-eye coordination in many areas.

Another positive aspect of violent games I've seen is the desensitizing of depictions of blood and gore, the same way that certain movies do. Some people think that is a bad thing, but I know for someone in the medical field or emergency response profession, that desensitizing can help a person think rationally and quickly in a situation that can make most people vomit or freeze up in shock. A game that depicts strategies and quick thinking to escape from a bad situation, trains the mind and reaction times to be increasingly prepared for that.

I don't think video games overule the moral/ethical opinions of a person unless those aspects were weak to begin with. I think it's even capable of doing a lot of good when the child is raised on strong ethical beliefs and taught how to make good decisions in life. No game tells the player that the violence is so much fun that they should try it at home. Even in Grand Theft Auto, your character will be chased down and killed (whether it's the police, the mafia, or gangs) for making the wrong decisions. It's good reinforcement to have to make the right decisions within context of the situation to succeed in the end. Knowing right from wrong takes a lot more then just censorship to learn.

Fascinating, Chairish. Thanks for sharing your experience. I had not considered the positive aspects of gaming. You make valid points.

Leslie, my young friend in question had Spring Break. I offered him a kazillion activities ... but he considered them all to boring to contemplate. He refused to ride his bike and play with friends, go exploring, make a bird house ... anything! EVERYTHING except gaming is boring to him. I am not certain the problem with him is gaming ... though it may be a part. Tough kid to help grow up.

I was bored easily as a kid. Not to blow my own horn but kids who are, are usually intelligent and not being stimulated to their level.

I hope you know I'm not blaming you, Richard.

Maybe this kid would love to learn how to create a video game? Don't you have a computer friend (someone who is good with software)? Maybe learning that skill would be interesting to him.

You could have him explore the area where you live in order to get some ideas for settings for the story in his game?

Just an idea.

Leslie,

Maybe you're correct about smart kids(/adults) getting bored easily. I almost never have or do get bored. I suppose that doesn't reflect positively on my intelligence. On the other hand, I am infinitely fascinated with many, many diverse topics. Who is having more fun?

Chris

One of the hard things about gaming as a hobby is the lack of social connection and exercise, and I have to constantly work on that in myself. I've met a number of adults that get to the point where talking to them about anything other then the game they are absorbed with just causes them to zone out and lose interest in conversation, nevermind the idea of actually exercising once in awhile. At some point, I think it can become a very negative addiction of sorts. I don't have an addictive personality so it's hard for me to understand where the line is drawn. I just naturally get bored of it if I've been gaming too long and I'll go do something else, but I've certainly seen it in other people where they've crossed way over that line.

Just as an idea, I really enjoyed being enrolled in various sports growing up, from soccer and tennis to martial arts and swimming. A lot of it still has the characteristics and challenges of gaming, but builds significantly better social and physical capability. I think that's really the only comparable alternative against the intensity of most games nowadays. In fact, his interests in video games might mirror a sport he's admired and make it easier to find something he loves. A lot of fighting games mirror actual martial arts styles, and if he likes a particular character, the character's fighting style might be a lot of fun to learn for him. Not having a say in the matter is a whole other problem though. If his parents aren't working on it, the boy will have to learn the hard way when he grows up and is forced to grow out of it. Either that, or he learns to use it like with the idea of creating or developing games.

I actually worked in quality assurance testing for the gaming company Activision for a couple years, so I learned a lot about that career field in my couple years there. It's a very fun field to work in, and just having my name on the credits of a couple big games was a very cool bonus. Unfortunately migraines got in the way of achieving the college education I needed to stay on board, but otherwise it is a very easy field to get your foot in the door and get started with these companies. It's probably one of the most recession-proof careers out there because somehow gamers always find a way to get their games. That was the only time where I've seen some of the most intense gamers I've ever met put their 'addiction' to very good use. I met some truly brilliant people in that company, whom were undoubtedly serious gamers most of their youth. We were so absorbed in the 'work', we had no problems volunteering overtime on several occasions to continue 'testing' the latest alpha build of some new game.

The best thing I can say is everyone I know that played way too many games growing up, turned out alright as an adult. The adults I know with gaming addictions seem more like maybe they didn't play enough as a kid, almost like they're trying to make up for lost time or something. Either that, or their parents just didn't care at all and let him stay absorbed in the game all the time. If he has you taking him out to theatre events and parents that show they care, I think he'll do just fine in the long run because those memories will stick with him and remind him there's a real world out there that isn't so bad. It's kinda funny, but I remember being taken to several theatre shows as a kid too and how uncomfortable the seating was (so I was probably squirming like a little brat too). Now that I've grown up though, the appreciation for the arts stuck with me and I love seeing a good live theatre show. I didn't understand anything going on, but I still understood the most important thing looking back, that they didn't have to include me and I know they did it because they cared. I think that alone helps build positive values more then anything. A kid's actions seem to be so misleading some times, because I remember tons of things that I wasn't comfortable doing, or was anxious to get out of. Yet, many of my hobbies next to gaming are all the things my parents and their friends used to do with me. I love spinach now, love traveling to far away countries, enjoy trying new foods, and believe in good habits like keeping my room clean and working hard wherever I go. Nobody woulda thought when I was that hyperactive teenage boy 20+ years ago

Meh.....video games are fun.

A game isn't go to turn a kid into a pscyhopath--there's a few croutons short of a salad to begin with.

On the military games, there's a ton of history to be learned by some--where else would someone actually have an idea of how intense Iwo or Stalingrad was. And there are games out there that do (Medal of Honor, Call of Duty, Red Orchestra).

There are good strategy games that do not show people getting blown up and bloody scenes. And there are a few fun flight simulators out (especially the IL2 Sturmovik series) that show air battle as realistically on the ground as it can get.

Grand Theft Auto.....I dunno, you can get a pretty good chuckle out of some of things in these games. Not everything in life is taken as if it were written in stone. "The Saboteur" is not unlike GTA. It's set in occupied Paris, and a resistance character is free to whack, smack, kick, shoot, and blow up just about anything in the game (including mean Nazis, old men, and women of ill-repute).

So IMO, your mileage may vary. And yes some discretion should be used.

We played a lot of games as kids with fire-crackers and other things, and it was not horribly violent by any means. Rocketry, cannons.... It was fun.

That's what kids do.......

That was far more innocent than what kids are exposed to today. If their mom shops at Victoria's Secret, the catalog is worth its weight in gold. LOL.

Chairish1976 wrote:


I actually worked in quality assurance testing for the gaming company Activision for a couple years, so I learned a lot about that career field in my couple years there. It's a very fun field to work in, and just having my name on the credits of a couple big games was a very cool bonus. Unfortunately migraines got in the way of achieving the college education I needed to stay on board, but otherwise it is a very easy field to get your foot in the door and get started with these companies. It's probably one of the most recession-proof careers out there because somehow gamers always find a way to get their games.

Just curious. Does a person over the age of 30 even have a chance of working for a gaming company? I'm not interested but I have some friends who are and they are not kids.

Chris

I agree with Leslie in that I believe that the ratings should be on these games so that the parent can make an informed decision about what their kids are going to be exposed to in theses video games.

My son sooo wanted to rent "Grand Theft Auto," and I said, absolutely not!

Of course I know that he played it at a friends house where the parents weren't so involved in what the kids were exposed to.

All I know is that it wasn't on my watch and my son saw ME take a stand against this kind of violence.

That's what is important to me.

Cindy

My husband and I have both been gaming since we were little kids in the 80's. Both of our children play games, but it seems obvious to us that they shouldn't be playing the same games we do. Our shooter games are only played after the kids have gone to bed. This is a choice that we made and quite frankly, the government shouldn't. If we're going to screw up badly as a society, then so be it. Maybe we'll learn one day from our mistakes.

Both my husband and myself have also worked on game development from graphic design to game coding and have had a whole lot of fun. We've met so many other gaming couples through some of the games we've worked on and others that we just play.

I really do think that people today do not see violence the same way as we once did, at least those of us who live in an area where we do not have to worry about constant attacks. It seems to me that a bigger problem is the lack of actual footage of war available on the news. We make sure there are no bodies shown in bombing footage, the blood is often cleaned up. War just doesn't seem real when you do not see the victims. If people are becoming more violent, I find it far more likely that it's because they just don't understand real violence than because they're playing violent games. I don't own a gun and never would, but I have a blast with them in games. I have always been able to tell the difference between reality and fantasy (with the exception the "dream world" I enter with migraines) and if a person cannot, there is a larger problem than the video games.

Quite frankly, it's not the games that are available for purchase in the United States that are the problem. RapeLay has made headlines lately for it's depiction of rape. The entire point of the game is to hunt down a woman and her two young daughters and rape them. This game is available for download for free. It's certainly not the only game that has rape in it. While not technically a game, but rather an interactive dvd, Stockholm: An Exploration of True Love was on the market before RapeLay. In this game, you have to rape and torture a woman into falling in love with you ... following the Stockholm syndrome theory, if you are brutal enough, the victim will identify with you.

It's so important that parents know exactly what their children are playing. I think you'll find that there are some really disturbing games out there. The worst is the fact that they're available for free for anyone to download.

crt - many of the game testers that are really successful are over 30, usually with degrees in programming or engineering. These are the guys and gals who test before a game goes to alpha or beta phase.

I feel it is up to parents to make choices for their children. The problem is the parents that are uninvolved with their children i.e. not knowing what their kids are doing.

I don't think that the government should step in on this unless they are going to start a spay/neuter program so that people that have no business having kids can (Just so everyone is aware I'm being sarcastic here). There are always people that aren't as involved with their children as they should be (I'm meaning don't care - I feel for single parents and know that most of them do the best they can) and the government should not be parenting for them.

Annika - OMG! Who in their right mind would design those kinds of games! That is absolutely disgusting and IMO should be banned!!!

HeelerLady wrote:Annika - OMG! Who in their right mind would design those kinds of games! That is absolutely disgusting and IMO should be banned!!!

I hate to say it, but I've seen even worse in Japan when I worked for an import shop in Los Angeles. We traveled to Japan a couple times a year to bring back merchandise, and the manager would take special requests for some of the adult stuff that would pass customs regulations. One of the biggest reasons I didn't stick around, because it got pretty sickening. Things like child pornography advertised/sold on the street, imitation rape videos (they claimed it was all paid actresses/actors), animal pornography... It still affects my opinion of that culture to this day because something is just mentally wrong with the tolerance for those things there. I try and be understanding to different cultures, but I gotta draw the line somewhere. Creeps me out just thinking that people sell that much less watch it.

crt wrote:
Just curious. Does a person over the age of 30 even have a chance of working for a gaming company? I'm not interested but I have some friends who are and they are not kids.

Chris

I met a lot of people in Activision at the time that were over 30 so I believe so, but they would probably want a degree in development or some background in software/compatability testing. For the quality assurance position, I was tested on basic knowledge of computer software and hardware, with three consecutive interviews on the same day from several lead testers. It's definitely worth applying if they are interested.

I don't think there is so much an age restriction as there is a requirement of knowing a LOT about gaming. I had to get pretty good at the games we were testing just to get to some places in the game and accurately test it for problems. That was really the only difficult thing about it

It is somewhat of a seasonal occupation since they increase the releases around Christmas, so the only thing is they will want to do to keep the position is push forward in the company for a lead slot, and complete any college classes they are taking on development in order to keep their job during slow seasons. They tend to let go of 80% of the staff shortly after the winter season, and then another 10% or so move on up to a different department either in customer service or development teams.

Cindy*W wrote:I agree with Leslie in that I believe that the ratings should be on these games so that the parent can make an informed decision about what their kids are going to be exposed to in theses video games.

My son sooo wanted to rent "Grand Theft Auto," and I said, absolutely not!

Of course I know that he played it at a friends house where the parents weren't so involved in what the kids were exposed to.

All I know is that it wasn't on my watch and my son saw ME take a stand against this kind of violence.

That's what is important to me.

Cindy

One of the potential problems I see with this debate, is the fact that people like me might be turning out alright because there is this ongoing debate. While growing up, it was never universally accepted to play games a lot or accept violent games, but it wasn't banned or heavily censored either. I was at the age where things like that have an effect when parents started to get worried about all the fighting and killing in just about everything sold.

So even though I don't think censorship is necessary based on my experience, who's to say that after this debate is over, children would be negatively affected when all the games are either labeled acceptable or unacceptable? Then you introduce the element of kids either connecting that violence is acceptable, or that it's the cool thing to do because it's labeled unacceptable. It's healthier I think during the actual debate, so kids are shown both sides of the argument and take a stance on it themselves.

Back when I was in my early teens my friends and I would put on three pairs of pants, a heavy jacket and a motorcycle helmet. We would go to the local gravel pit and shoot at each other with our BB and pellet guns. Sorta like paintball games but without the paint balls.

Of course our parents never thought we would do anything that stupid so we got away with it for several years. None of my friends grew up violent or anti-social. I do agree very much about the video and computer hyper stimulation. It makes most of the rest of life very boring. School is the first casualty.

Even though my daughter (11y/o) isn't into violent video games I still have to pry her away the other ones and send her outside. I have bought her a mountain bike, trampoline and swimming pool along with many pets. And this summer we will be hitting all the lakes around us.
https://migrainepage.forumotion.net/miscellaneous-f3/got-my-new-canoe-t1234.htm

The violent games cannot be beneficial in any way no matter who does the study. But the bigger threat is all the video media kids are into now.

But all I can do is manage my own child and hope the rest grow up normal and well adjusted.

What is more twisted is, as Richard mentioned you can have very graphic violence in a movie and have a PG rating but if one boob or bare backside is shown it will be slapped with an R rating.

So in the MPAA's mind a bare boob is dangerous for a child to see be decapitations and horrible deaths are not as bad. There is no consistency from an industry that claims to be the gate keepers for society's video entertainment.

I am so sorry. I did not mean people who don't get bored easily are stupid! I feel awful about that. Please ignore my ignorant comment.

£eslie

Yes, I think my problem here is this.

IF we as Americans decide that the parents ought to be the sole censors of violence (games, movies, DVD's) then why are we so INCONSISTENT regarding sex? I just don't get it.

I would have MUCH preferrred my daughter view normal sexual activity that she either understood or didn't than have her exposed to massive amounts of non-stop violence.

IF the State ought to step away from banning the sales and rentals of extremely violent video games (which is a rational position) then why ought the State ban the sale or rental of R movies and soft and hard porn to kids ... why don't we let the parents decide on that one also?

Are Americans simply hung up on sex but not on violence? I don't have any answer here ... but the inconsistency baffles me. Can anyone give me insight as to why, with parental permission, a 15 year old boy should be prohibited from entering a "dirty book store"? You all know the kind of business I am referring to ... one that profits from the sale and rental of sexually explicit material. If the parents are the sole arbiter for that 15 year old's exposure to extreme violence, then why not sex too?

I think you, me and many others have the perception to wonder why. I can't pin it on religion since all of my hardcore religious friends do not allow their kids to view either violence or sex/nudity. My very liberal progressive friends all do not want their kids exposed to either until they are old enough to be able to handle it properly.

It most likely IMHO is just neglect, the parents just don't closely monitor what their kids are watching/playing. And there may be a good many that don't allow it but the kids still do it behind their back. And the market knows that and exploits it.

My parents did not allow me to do many things but that never stopped me if I wanted to. And where there is a demand there will be a supply.

I had a really bad one last night while typing up that last post. I know it was pretty unstructured, but I hope it was at least understandable =/

I moved to the US from Europe as a tween so I was raised by parents with slightly different values. One of the few things that my mom had a problem with was the fact that violence was considered so much better for children than sex. She definitely believes that America does have a problem when it comes to both issues and she's probably right. And while violence in movies and games is certainly acceptable to a large percentage of the population, it isn't accepted as much in real life. Even two people who get into a fight, who both want to fight, can be arrested. I've always thought that was a little silly. Violence is a part of who many people are and sex is a part of who most people are whether we like it or not. We accept boxing and wrestling, but not street fighting, which has always baffled me a little.

I do think that it should be up to the parents to decide whether their children should be exposed to both. I have some major problems with the porn industry as it stands now, but perhaps if we weren't so keen to avoid it as a society we would end up with an industry that doesn't have the exploitation problems that it has today.

I wonder if perhaps one day we will wake up as a nation, as a world, and realize that we cannot stop people from doing things that they want to do and remain a free people. Laws have never stopped people from committing crimes. Drunk drivers are a major problem in the United States, we have laws against it, but it never seems to stop people from getting behind the wheel under the influence time and time again.

We know that if we tell kids that they cannot do something, they're going to try to figure out a way to do whatever it is. I'm not sure why we think adults are any different. Telling adults that they cannot drink and drive, use drugs, steel, rape, murder, etc. has never stopped people from actually doing those things. There are people, myself included, who don't commit crimes because it is against the law, but I do wonder if I'm in the majority or minority there. I would smoke marijuana if it were legal. The only reason I don't is because I have children. It helped with migraines when I was a teenager, so I wouldn't hesitate to use it if it were legal.

Laws are simply a reflection of a societies moral beliefs and not necessarily a reflection of what is right and wrong.

As a side, it is true that children who are bored are often intelligent and simply need some intellectual stimulation, but that doesn't mean that intelligent children are often bored. Richard Feynman for one could probably attest to that if he were still around A dalmatian is a dog, but that doesn't mean that all dogs are dalmatians.

Teenagers can be moody and determined to never let you show them a good time. Having a good time would mean that you knew what was best for them and that's the last thing a person who is trying to find their identity wants.

lesherb wrote:I am so sorry. I did not mean people who don't get bored easily are stupid! I feel awful about that. Please ignore my ignorant comment.

£eslie

Leslie,

Please don't worry about it. I was having a good time poking fun at myself. Your comment didn't bother me at all. I found it humorous.

Chris

I would have MUCH preferrred my daughter view normal sexual activity that she either understood or didn't than have her exposed to massive amounts of non-stop violence.

Richard, I'm not quite understanding the logic train here.

Howdy ... one of my favorite movies as a teen was Zererelli's "Romeo and Juliet." In that movie, the young lovers are shown waking up nude. Juliet talks Romeo into coming back to bed. One sees his buttocks and her breasts in the movie. And the implication of sex is very graphic ... but still implied ... no porn, just nudity,

I would much have prreferred my daughter see that movie than play a video game with extreme violence. For example. She would either "get" the sexual implictions or just be exposed to brief nudity. If she understood the story line, fine ... she understood. If she did not understand, I don't believe seeing a young man's rear end or a young woman's bosom would damage her at all. And the movie was great.

It is like the fairly recent exposure of Janet Jackson's breast at a football event ... the USA went wild in outrage. I just did not get it. What the heck? MUCH less than 5 second TV camera exposure and we all get worried about "the children being exposed?"

Does that make sense?

And that "Wardrobe malfunction" was at a football game that is one of the more violent US sports. Thousands of great athletes get permanently injured each year in the varsity, college and NFL leagues just for the entertainment value.

I am with you Richard about how screwed up our culture is about nudity versus graphic violence. I cannot connect the dots or find any logic at all in it.

Although there is a strange paradox of two powerful groups in this country that are on opposite sides politically and socially. The fundamentalist Christians and the feminists groups, but both are in complete agreement against porn. Strange bedfellows for sure but united are a very powerful force to contend with.

Richard and Brent,

I agree with you completely. Well said, guys!

Chris