An interesting link re gel for migraines.

I know I said I wouldnt post any more links, but this one might interest you....
NSAIDs rubbed into the gums....

http://www.migraine.org.uk/index.php?sectionid=1270

This is very interesting - I cannot take NASAID tablets, as they quickly upset my stomach, but I have been using Ibuprophen gel for some time for pain, by rubbing it at the base of my skull and neck. It helps to some degree. But to use it as a preventative on the gums - is quite a new concept. We shall wait and see.

I was also interested to read what the Dr AD is saying, that in a headache prone patient taking even as little as 2 or 3 doses a week of painkiller for any reason (hip pain , toothache etc.) can potentially lead to frequent headaches.
I was trying to explain this very points to my GP, but he insisted that if I take painkillers for other pain (joint), rather then h/a, this is not going to lead to MOH. He was telling me to take more painkillers, so I tried to explain to him the reason why I was worried about it and did not want any more.

It is all most confusing. But I know, that I prefer to believe a migraine specialist, rather then GP in this respect and prefer to be careful.

Mini,

Tell your GP, that you know of someone to whom this has happened:

The only rebound / MOH that I have ever had was when I was taking Ibuprofen daily, as prescribed, for pain in my neck and foot, not headache!

The prescription stated: Take 4-6 teaspoonfuls by mouth three times daily. At 100 mg/5 ml, that translates into 400 to 600 mg X 3 = 1200 to 1800 mg per day.

I took the Ibuprofen with a handful of shelled, raw, sunflower seeds, to help avoid stomach upset.

After I had been taking it for a few weeks, I noticed the following pattern: a headache (subtly different from a migraine) would start about an hour, or so, before the next dose was due to be taken. About another hour after taking the dose the headache would be gone, only to return as the time for the following dose approached.

Since the Ibuprofen did absolutely nothing to relieve the pain in my neck or foot, I asked for, and received, permission from my PCP to discontinue taking it. (Over five years later, my neck and foot still hurt!)

The only pain that Ibuprofen has ever reduced is the MOH that it caused in the first place!

Thank You for confirming what I suspected, MK. This is important informationn for all of us who need pain relief - this is exactly what I feared.

As it happens the medicine that my GP tried to prescribe for me was co-codamol, and it is the codeine element it it (10mg) that I was concerned with, but the effect would be probably similar, most likely worse with codeine then with Ibuprophen, so we need to be aware of this..

I use the Ibuprophen gel occasionaly since it is mainly for muscular and neck joint pain, which does not happen too often. BUt using it as prevenative - is a completely different and unproven use, and we would not know the long term implictaions for some time. But we will watch this space.

In a headache prone patient as little as 2 or 3 doses a week of painkiller for any reason (hip pain , toothache etc.) can potentially lead to frequent headaches.

I could tell right away from this baloney that this must be a UK site

seriously -this NSAID gel, that actually could be something useful, for a change. I would like to try that.

Risa

this is a great way of administering the drug esp as it by passes the stomach so avoiding the side affects for the drug and also whan you have a mig the stomach absorbs so little

Hi Risa,

Sorry you feel it is baloney, from that quote.... It saddens me that you have come to the conclusion everyone here is pushing MOH
and doesnt have enough medication. (see my post from the pain clinic on that

I believe this is a statement potentially taken out of context.

I have met the said neuro and HE is the one that told me I dont have MOH.
Even though I take more than that, and more Triptans than are "advisable" over here.

He has made many statements about MOH, and he said to me....
"we put them through the Hell getting them off the meds and then they still have the damn headaches. There are other reasons for daily headaches...".he mentioned my neck to me.
He, his wife and daughter all have migraine. He is the best neuro I have encountered so far.
And he is quoted as saying "can potentially", not necessarily or "will".
And also we have to be careful of "quotes" from the media....
What he said is probably true, but what was the full conversation I wonder?

BUT people do succumb to drug abuse (for that is what it is, although it is the drugs that are abusive)
The view of my own neuro is that it is a personal thing. Some people might have this problem quite easily.
Others would never get it, no matter what they took. I think,
The difference in effect of drugs between us and the variance of side effects I think might bear this out....

Please dont think that everyone in England is MOH mad.
They are not. I am not for a start.
Neither is my neuro, or any of the 6 GPs in my practice.
My own neuro doesnt subscribe much to it at all.

The pain people I saw, if you read my post on that.
They are really cross about it. They want people to be able to get the right amount of the right med quicker.
She actually said "we had a meeting with 50 stupid GPs" Now she wasnt saying all GPs are stupid.
And like the AD comment that could be taken out of context. It was part of a broader conversation about
The lack of proper understanding of pain and the resources to treat it quickly, when, as she said, we should be with people like her at the beginning. Not when all else has failed. BUT the GPs are dismissive of pain, and the cheapest way for them to deal with it is to give cheap medication...
This is not cost effective in the long run, but it is invariably what happens.

They told me, most of these cases come from people who dont even see drs (many men wont go) and they self medicate OTC.
It also seems Ibuprofen is the one people pop like Smarties.....oddly it is seen as inoxious by people, so they just take lots of it....

So I just wanted to put a marker down, hopefully of understanding Risa, so that, in case anything good comes out of England, you dont feel put off by the MOH pushers. It seems it does exist, (MK's experience bears that out) but is overblown. (2%)
AND, if we were taken seriously in the first place, it probably wouldn't exist at all.....

If I hear any more on the the oral gel, I will break my own rule and post it.....

Pen, thanks for posting.

Anna actually tried this in in 2004 when my hubby took her to a particular dentist in New York who had developed a novel treatment for treating migraines. Part of his treatment was using this type of medication on gums behind the back molars. The medication was a creme, and it was concocted at a compounding pharmacy. I believe Anna applied it three times daily with long cotton swabs. It didn't taste very good.

The dentist passed away. Another dentist bought out the practice, and we occasionally get a letter from him. But I don't know if he is promoting this treatment or not. But perhaps the treatment was picked up in the U.K. or perhaps someone in the U.K. came up with the treatment also.

I think if Anna's pain hadn't been so constant and severe, it might have helped some.

We need new treatments for migraine disease, that's for sure. I hope some people are helped by this.

Cheryl

Fir the record, my nuero also said not to take any pain med more than 3x per week for any reason. And I live in the US, so I don't think that is just a UK thing.

I don't happen to buy into the whole MOH concern. Not that it can't happen and that some people like mule kick above might not fall victim to it. Clearly it can and does happen to some. But that fear of MOH on the part of many medical professionals is also what leaves a lot of people suffering needlessly. Once MOH is ruled out as the cause of a persons headaches, it's time to lighten up and make life livable for people.

Sorry you feel it is baloney, from that quote....

You know, I was just kidding there Pen,

but to be quite honest, I do have such impression, to me UK does seem to be pushing MOH indeed very strongly.
I only wonder why - is it perhaps more so the UK doctors successfully protect themselves from Rx-ing
narcotic pain relief?

Come to think of it, it does work very well - look at Mini and Dawn.
I can see them marching thru the streets waving
"MOH from three times a week" and "say no! to Rx drugs!" flags

Risa

Ha Ha!! Risa,

I honestly dont know why we seem to have this split between the two sides of the ocean on MOH.

There might be something in the cost argument and the post about the "encouragement" some american drs get from drug companies.
But that wouldnt explain the attitude of some people here.

As I have said. I have not had one single dr, including the one quoted on a thread here about 2/3 times a week.
Even suggest MOH. I asked all about it at the hospital on Tuesday.

My husband thinks it is a cop out. Blame the patient......But that's him...
He doesnt disbelief its existence, just the incidence.

Well at least you know not everyone in England is MOH sensitive Risa.
Not even the doctors...

There might be something in the cost argument and the post about the "encouragement" some american drs get from drug companies.

But, mind you, I believe when it comes to the narcotic pain relief, it's quite the opposite- as it is "sensitive product".
No responsible doctor will push narcotic medication on the patient as DEA would be on his/her case pronto.

On the contrary, with the pain relief the doctors tend to be rather skimpy here as well. Just not as skimpy as in UK.
This certainly the is case here in Canada.
Above T3, a triplicate or other special Rx forms for government registry purposes, etc.

Well at least you know not everyone in England is MOH sensitive Risa.
Not even the doctors...

I am glad to hear that Pen

Risa

i believe this the migraine gel that the NY dentist developed and Anna tried:

http://migrainegel.com

Anna's Mom mentioned it: "Anna actually tried this in in 2004 when my hubby took her to a particular dentist in New York who had developed a novel treatment for treating migraines. Part of his treatment was using this type of medication on gums behind the back molars. The medication was a creme, and it was concocted at a compounding pharmacy. I believe Anna applied it three times daily with long cotton swabs. It didn't taste very good."

To what extent did the gel work?

Martin

Sorry, I got excited, it appears that the web site is selling something else, but quoting Dr Friedman's work. From the web site:

""Based on our research (palpatio and temperature studies, laser-evoked potential results, IVC response in open-label and controlled studies, IVC results in more than 7,000 in-office headache treatments and home application of the NSAID topical gel), I conclude that these primary headaches are mediated by a persistent neurogeni maxillary alveolar mucosal inflammation and that they respond exceptionally well to local anti-inflammatory treatment." - Doctor M.H. Friedman

This not a NSAID gel, as per the web site, their ingredients are:

dimethyl sulfoxide, water, urea, aloe, glycerol, xanthan gum, peppermint extract (alcohol and oil of peppermint) and stevia.

It appears that they are using Dr Friedman's name in quoting his results, but not using his formula.

Martin

My goodness, how they posted so much information about Dr. Friedman's methods. But his product contained Ketoprofen and therefore required a prescription.

Martin, how hard would it be to get any M.D. to write a script for it? Seems harmless enough, if used as Dr. Friedman directed.

Since Anna had three different treatments while in New York for five days (gel, chilling, and laser), I can't sort out how much the gel helped alone.

When Anna and my hubby came home, my husband and his engineer friend built a "chilling machine." It was very close to Dr. Friedman's chilling machine. Anna was using that daily, along with the gel.

Dr. Friedman said his methods worked better on a migraineur who wasn't in constant pain (Anna's pain was constant). So the odds were against her.

After awhile she gave it all up. It just wasn't helping enough. We still have the chilling machine. The gel expired, of course.

My Minnesota friend took her son to Dr. Friedman around the same time. They rented a chilling machine from Dr. Friedman for home use. The treatment did not help him. It turned out in later years they learned he had chronic Lyme disease, he was treated for that by a Lyme doc at Yale, and he is fine now. Very little HA anymore.

My hubby thought the world of Dr. Friedman. He was really trying to help migraineurs.

My hubby's sense was that the laser helped Anna the most. They saw Dr. Friedman for treatments on a Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. Anna did the gel and chilling treatment over the weekend at the hotel. By Monday her gums were very swollen and painful. Plus she wasn't able to keep the HA pain down. On that Monday she saw Dr. Friedman, and he did the laser only. With that laser treatment, her HA went away for the rest of the day. It came back the next day, but the laser worked again on Tuesday. Then they went home after that, and she couldn't get the home treatment to work very well.

OK, how to get that laser at home!!! I actually called some local dentists to try and get it, with no success.

It was an amazing experience, for sure, and we never regretted trying it.

Cheryl