I could use some advice from you wise people

As you all probably know, my parents are currently out of the country and unreachable, so I'm turning to you wise group of people for your input since I can't turn to them.

My best friend just called me. She has a 3-month-old baby and many problems with her husband. They've been married just a little over a year (June 28, I think). They've had problems with their marriage from the beginning, with each contributing to the problems, but she rarely sees her own faults. Usually when they have problems, she turns to my parents as well as me because my parents are her "second parents." But since they are gone, she has turned to me, and I'm at a loss.

She and her husband both have anger issues. Her anger generally manifests itself in yelling. I remember because I was her roommate for a year. She never got violent. I don't think her husband intends to be violent either; he just doesn't always recognize his own strength against her.

When she was three months pregnant, he got upset at her that she wouldn't go out for a walk with him (he has ADHD and needs constant exercise or goes crazy, and since she has little stamina, that was a major element of their earliest fights). He tried to force her to go, and that ended up with him pinning her to the floor, with his knee and weight on her stomach, which scared her, since she was carrying their son. She got bruises from that episode, something my parents and I can testify to, since she came to our house and stayed with us for a few days after that.

That finally got her to decide to ask him to go for marriage counseling, something that she had been resisting. She is from Mongolia, and although she is very Americanized (something I think he isn't as pleased about because he'd prefer a submissive Asian wife), she still carries that stigma Asians in particular have against any kind of counseling. But I think that she saw that my therapist helped me, so she asked me to get a referral from my therapist for a marriage counselor in her area. They went together a few times and really connected with the therapist.

Then, her husband did something really stupid. In a session, he told the therapist in front of her that he was afraid that after the baby came (she was about 7 months along by then and VERY large), she wouldn't lose all the weight she had gained. He said that with his age and his income, he knew he didn't deserve a supermodel for a wife, but he did deserve one who took good care of herself and looked good (i.e. thin, as she was before she got pregnant).

They had further problems, and eventually she started telling him that he needed the counseling more than she did, so he should go by himself, which of course is not productive. My parents and I encouraged her to continue, and my dad even paid for them to go to two sessions, but they stopped after that.

When the baby was a week or two old, her husband called my dad asking for advice because my friend wasn't allowing him to go near their baby. She said that he was awkward in holding him, so she was afraid of what might happen. She had already told me before the baby was born that she was afraid that his ADHD might cause him to be a danger to the baby, although I don't see how that would be. She eventually did let him hold the baby, but she has always been uncomfortable with his doing that.

Speed forward to a week or two ago. She texted me that her husband had just told her that he is depressed because she is so fat. She isn't fat; she just isn't as thin as she was before she had a baby! And he's only 3 months old! He has refused to have sex with her because he can't get turned on by her body and even suggested that she just go sleep with whomever because he doesn't want to. He is also hooked on online porn.

Now speed forward to tonight. I got a text from her that he had attacked her and the baby. I immediately called her, and it wasn't as bad as she had made it sound on the text, but it was still very serious. She had wanted him to move the crib into their bedroom because they had moved the bassinette to her office, so she can keep the baby with her when she is at work, where she is returning this week. Her husband started complaining that the crib is worthless because it's so old (it was my crib that my parents had lent them, so they wouldn't have to spend the money on buying a new crib, and my parents didn't pressure them to take it, only said it was available) and that he hadn't put it together all the way and didn't want to go through all the work. So of course she started nagging him that he doesn't finish what he started, etc.

Their fight got worse, and she threw a candle at him. I don't know what size or condition this candle was in, but she doesn't seem to realize that she made the first move here, and she was in no condition for me to be able to point that out to her. She was too upset about what happened next.

In response, he went to hit her and instead hit his son's head, although she did play that down some, saying it wasn't very serious, and she is one to overdramatize things, so I'm guessing it probably wasn't too serious. She has a tendency to call many things abuse that would never fit the definition by any form.

Actually, now that I think about it, maybe he hit her and the baby first before she threw the candle. She played that part down enough that I now am not certain of the order of events. But she aggravated him to it (not that I am ever condoning hitting of any kind! Just trying to be as un-biased as I can be in presenting both sides of the issue).

I remember that somewhere in this, he yelled at her that she does nothing all day, just "takes out her boobies to put in the baby's mouth."

His next response was to throw a shoe at them. And that is what has incensed her so much. She grabbed the phone and told him that she was going to call 911, so he took the phone from her and stormed out of the house, saying that tomorrow he is going to call the lawyer.

It sounds rather like it would be a good and safe thing for the baby if they did split up, but there are complications. For one thing, he would likely get some form of custody, and she wouldn't be able to supervise any of his time spent with his son, which may or may not be a bad thing. He might turn out better if he didn't have his wife with him showing her disapproval of how he held the baby.

But much worse is the fact that her green card depends upon their remaining married another two years. She was in the process of applying for her green card through her work, my church, where she is the accountant, but when she got married the lawyer said that the law required her to apply as his wife instead. She was granted the green card, but the condition is that she stay married for another two years. I don't know what the chances are of her being able to re-apply through her work if they get divorced.

And if she does lose her green card, then she will be deported to Mongolia, which will almost certainly mean that she will lose the baby because all her husband has to say is that he wants the baby and will be able to provide much more for him than he could get in Mongolia, and the courts will most likely decide in favor of the father.

So what advice would you give my friend? Obviously, the most important thing is the safety of the baby. But how do you work through the nuiances to decide how best to keep him safe? What do you folks recommend I tell her?

I have several friends that speak to me of past violence in their past relationships. I just listen because it is all way in the past - but I do affirm that they do not deserve violence and oughtnot stand for it in any relationship.

In this case, I would tell her that her situation is more than you can help with. She needs to see her counselor for advice and perhaps a lawyer. A legal separation sounds feasible.

But YOU are neither equipped to handle nor in any way responsible for this situation and marriage. Listen when you can, affirm no violence, and strongly recommend professional help.

Thanks, Richard! I just wish that she were more open to returning to counseling, even if just by herself. After a visit, she would admit that it had done some good, but soon she would revert to deciding it wasn't worth it, especially after her husband told them during the session that he deserved a thin wife. I think she lost some confidence in the counselor when he didn't immediately tell her husband that he was out of line. He did later and apologized to her for not telling him so right away, but he was so shocked by the statement that he didn't come back immediately on it. I also suspect his method of counseling is more passive, where he doesn't try to tell clients they are wrong but tries to get them to figure this out for themselves.

I have suggested that she find a different counselor, if that is what is making her unwilling to go, but she says that she doesn't have the money to put into starting over with a new person, since it takes time for the therapist to get to know the client. Actually, money is a key excuse she gives for not going, which is why my dad paid for them to have two sessions. She took one of those by herself and had the other with him.

But now, counseling has become a power tool to her, as she keeps telling him that he needs it more than she does, so he needs to go, but not admitting that she needs help too.

It's such a complicated situation, and it usually takes several days after one of their fights for her to start to see even a tiny bit of the bigger picture.

And adding to the situation is the fact that his mother is coming over this weekend, and the mother has, in the past, seen my friend as competition for her son's attention and love. She tried to break them up before they got married.

I do agree with you, Richard, that I am not equipped to counsel her and need to push her to get back into counseling. I particularly am concerned about the welfare of their baby. Even if no one ever touches him again, being born into a situation where both parents are fighting this badly is really unhealthy.

Vicki,

Been mulling this over this morning. Richard is right on - way too much for you to handle on your own. If she won't see a counselor would she be willing to talk to a pastor at the church? It might be a short term solution to the problem. This is part of their job and something that we overlook sometimes.

I can appreciate the difficult situation you are in. Both are to blame with this as they both have issues and both really do need counseling if they want their marriage to work. I also wonder if medication might be necessary for him - there are treatments out there for adult ADHD and it might help tone down some things on his part. However, your friend needs to find another way to deal with things other than how she's been going about it.

I do feel sorry for that child. He didn't ask for this. Could you invite the friend over to escape the MIL for a while? I can understand how horrid that situation can be and when you can't leave things just simmer away. Just so she has a chance to get away from it for a couple hours? Just a thought.

And you thought you were going to be lonely home alone. Bet you never saw this coming...at least you're occupied. Hang in there.

Our friend Norma here has a great husband who is a pastor ... he also has received extensive training in pastoral counseling. I am not speaking of any of the wonderful regular pastors around, but of men and women with callings who are also trained counselors.

If such exists in North Carolina, surely such exists in Southern California. A pastoral counselor may be exactly what this situation calls for.

The other angle of this situation is this. You, Vicki, have been told that an infant has been struck in anger. If you were a teacher or a therapist, the law would require you to report this to your local Department of Social Services - for investigation and for the provision of State services to change the situation.

You are not required by law to make a report - but the situation does present you with a moral dilemma. To report or not to report? If reported, a trained social worker would investigate and determine if abuse had occurred and what the appropriate remedy would be - not always or even most of the time is the remedy removal of the child - often the rememdy is forced counseling and networking with necessary service providers to keep the child safe and with the child's parents.

If I had the specifics of this situation - name and address - I think I would have the guts to make a report. I am not sure, but I think I would.

Who struck who first? Does not matter in my book. You have described both a husband and a wife who resort to violent acts. And so far, just so far, the child has been caught in the crossfire only once. Would the situation be different if the wife threw something at the husband and accidently hit the child? Maybe or maybe not. but in the marriage you describe, violence will occur again. I say leave it to those with professional training to make these difficult choices and to provide the necessary pressure and services for change to occur.

Good luck to you

Vicki, Richard is right. You have been told that an infant has been struck by his father. You also know both parents are violent. If I was you, I'd be on the phone with child protective services (or the police).

I also agree that you're not equipped to help this couple. They sound like crazy people, IMHO.

It's a shame that the wife is dependent upon the husband in order to remain in the country.

Take a deep breath and think about it. Could you live with yourself if something were to happen to this baby? He is the one who matters here, not the father nor the mother.

You've got to remove the excuses like where they come from and anger issues and ADHD, and even your emotions towards them. The focus is the safety of the baby. They are throwing things and swinging hands around a defensless baby. ENOUGH. I would tell my friend that she needs to walk away and get a lawyer and let the chips fall where they may. All that other stuff is unimportant in the big scheme of things.

This is not your path to walk and not your path to fix. You are only a witness and can try to protect the innocent.


That is my take.

Vickie,

Regardless of who is the right or wrong what it boils down to is a child was hit in a violent situation. The very people who are supposed to be protecting this dear child are putting it at risk of injury over issues such as who is too fat?

Please don't get tied up in this situation any more than you already are. Turn in over to professionals who will look out for the best interest of the CHILD.

Hugs to you, Sweetie for trying to help this couple. But, step back and realize that it's just not possible since they are not willing to help themselves.

Hi Vicky.

I am a social worker trained in child protection here in the UK although I don't work in that field now.

I have to agree with the advice given already by others. The needs of the child are paramount and its protection is more important than the needs of the parents. In the UK the rights of the child are enshrined in European law. Professionals must report suspected abuse and ordinary members of the public can be prosecuted for failing to protect an injured child if they didn't take action when they knew something was going on.

You have been told that there is an atmosphere of violence in the house for at least some of the time and that the child has been caught up in the crossfire. The father has hit the child through being reckless and the mother is unable to protect the child in these situations. Also both parents appear to be reluctant to take the necessary steps to change to ensure the child is protected in the future. I would say that the risk of further physical harm to the child is high and that the atmosphere in the home suggests a pretty high risk of emotional abuse as well.

Knowing what you do puts you in a horrible situation as you risk your family's friendship with the mother and you risk losing your oportunity to monitor the situation and being able to protect the child yourself. The best option is to share your concerns with the mother and your feeling that things are so dangerous for the baby that they need outside help. It is always best if the family ask the authorities for help themselves rather than someone reporting them. If they refuse to recognise the situation, say that you will have to make a report as you could not bear it if something bad happened to the child.

The fact that a child is at risk of some sort of abuse does not mean that the child will be removed from the family or that a parent is asked to leave. It is much more likely that a group of professionals will work together to ensure the child's safety and oversea a plan of work with the parents to ensure that they understand and actively work to reduce the risk of harm the future.

In the UK child protection agencies sometimes hold a meeting of the wider family and friends where the problems are discussed openly and the parents and family formulate a protection plan themseves. This could really include anything from a rota to visit every evening for an hour to having the family live with someone for a period of time. My experience has been that, when a wider family realises how desperate things are, they want to help. The professionals then support and monitor the plan and its outcomes. I understand that this way of working is also used in some parts of the USA. One difficulty here is a possible lack of family support for the mother and her being made the demon if she has no one local.

I suspect you know you have to take some sort of action and what I'm trying to say is that seeking professional help doesn't have to be a bad thing and 95% of the time all works out well.

Thanks for your advice! I've been in so much pain lately that I hadn't been able to check up on what you wrote until now. I have had a hard time getting in touch with my best friend, other than a few text messages. In the two days after this incident, she didn't pick up her phone when I tried calling her. I wondered if she was hiding from me. She finally picked up Wednesday night, but said she couldn't talk about anything because her husband was right there.

When I tried to call her last night, she texted me later that her MIL was baby-sitting (something I never thought in a million years I would hear because my friend doesn't like her MIL and is reluctant to hand her baby over to anyone, even her husband, long before this incident happened!) and that she was on a date with her husband. So it appears that they have decided to try to do something about their relationship and not just let it go by the wayside.

She texted me tonight, asking if I could watch her son for an hour on Monday. She is just now going back to work and is allowed to take her son with her for the first few months. Apparently other people who have worked at the church have done this before, without problem. She set up his bassinette in her office, and she plans to continue on, with him in the room. I'm not sure how well that is likely to work, but that is the plan at the moment. However, on Mondays, she has to count the offering and log it into the computer, so she asked me to watch the baby while she does that because she needs her undivided attention on her job at that point.

I have been in a lot of pain lately and may not be well enough, but if I am, I'll do that, particularly because it will give me a chance to see her and talk to her and get more details of what is going on from her.

As for reporting them to child services, would it do any good if I only know things second-hand and have no evidence? I remember that before she was married, my friend was letting her sister and brother-in-law live with her, and she was very concerned about the way they were treating their baby daughter. But when she looked into reporting them, it appeared that without any evidence of the problems, they wouldn't really listen to her.

I'm going to wait until my parents get home on Thursday to make any definite decision. They are so much wiser than I am at dealing with these issues.

One thing my aunt emphasized was that when dealing with people who are fighting this badly, it is valuable to get them to agree on something, as a step to teaching them to compromise, and the welfare of their baby is something that both are likely to agree on. In this case, the baby got involved merely because he was an innocent bystander. My aunt suggested that we might be able to get them to agree that any time they start to have any kind of argument, they put the baby in his crib, so he is not exposed to the fight. Even if it never becomes physical again, just being in the middle of them yelling at each other isn't healthy for the baby, so this would be a potentially valuable thing for him anyway.

I like Richard's suggestion of having them see a pastor trained in counseling. I just don't know whether my friend would ever go. Certainly not if this person were at all connected to my church. She is very Americanized (something that I think her husband doesn't appreciate because I think he was hoping for the traditionally submissive Asian wife), but one thing she has retained of her Asian upbringing is the importance of maintaining face. When her sister beat her up a couple weeks before her wedding so badly that the neighbors called the police, she wore long-sleeve turlenecks in 90+ degree temperature, so no one at church would know that she was hurt.

But I did just think of one person who might be a possibility. I have met twice with a professor at Fuller Seminary, one of the largest Christian seminaries in the U.S. and which is located in Pasadena. This man specializes in what he calls "inner healing." He did me a huge amount of good in helping me to move past things from my past, particularly problems that I had in dating relationships. He also did wonders to help me forgive people I had been trying to forgive and move past for years. All in a single 2-hour session! He might be someone they would be willing to see, particularly since he has no contact with anyone at my church.

Someone's comment that the husband should look into ADHD meds is something I hadn't thought about but which I think is a good point. I know that they have done a lot to help my adult cousin, who was finally diagnosed with this during his third or fourth year of college. I just don't know whether the husband would be willing, since I get the feeling that he doesn't like to admit that he may have a problem with his ADHD.

As I may have mentioned earlier, a lot of their earliest fights were because he wanted her to participate in exercise a lot more than she was up to handling. I should have seen a sign of these problems, when at his wedding, numerous friends of his joked that only my friend could get him to stand still for the duration of the wedding ceremony. He has channeled that hyperactivity into running marathons and bicycling long distances, but he can't do that all the time he is at home.

Thanks for all the good advice. When I talked to my therapist about this on Wednesday, he seconded Richard's initial advice that I'm not personally equipped to deal with this and should just offer a listening ear, but let her know that I'm not a professional, which is what she really needs.

I did point out to my friend that if he does file for divorce, she should bring up the fact that he stopped her from being able to call 911, which is a felony. That might give her a little more ammunition, particulary if it does come down to her being sent back to Mongolia, and he tries to get custody. When I talked to her on the phone on Monday night, after he had stormed out of the house, she was even then questioning whether to call 911, but it seemed to me that by then, there was no emergency situation for them to deal with, especially because I don't think she wanted to file charges against him.

I wish I could just ignore the thorny side issues of her visa and look solely at the question of whether it's best for her to stay with him, but unfortunately, they do have a strong influence over the situation and its long-term consequences. Before she got married, the church was sponsoring her for a green card, but I suspect the Customs and Immigration Services would be suspicious if she tried to start that all over again.

Besides, the economy has changed since she started working there, and it would be hard to demonstrate that no American is qualified and interested in the job, which is what employers have to show in order to sponsor someone for permanent residency. Just the fact that she took 4 months off for maternity leave and they filled the position with a temp would make it look like they could find an American to take over the job of accountant.

I hope I can get more details on Monday. If I do, you can count of my running back here for further advice.

One question: Do you think I should mention to her that one of her neighbors might report them to child services after one of their fights? They live in a condo that is very close to the other units, so I'm sure the neighbors would be able to hear screaming. I don't want to give any indication that I might consider doing so, but it's entirely possible that a neighbor might report them. That was one thing that my aunt brought up.

The possibility that she might lose her son or at least have restrictions put on her by child services might be enough to shake her up to make her consider changing. It took a long time to convince her that if she were to go back to Mongolia, she probably would lose her son, but now she has a vested interest in trying to keep her marriage together. Maybe I could use that as a way to get her back into counseling.

Fortunately, at least I don't think that alcohol gets involved, which is something that my aunt was concerned about. She thought that perhaps he might go out drinking after this fight, but I get the impression that he didn't do that. I think he only drinks when with his wild buddies. Usually after a fight, he blows over pretty fast and does his best to try to get her to discuss their problems in their marriage. She, on the other hand, holds a grudge a long time and will go days without speaking to him at all.

That poor baby!

On a side note, I mentioned the situation to my Taiwanese sister last night, and her solution for their problems is for my friend to go on a diet and lose the extra weight to please her husband. When I pointed out that she needs to maintain a good diet and not cut back too much on food because she is breast-feeding, my sister's response was just to use formula. I don't think she believed me that it is healthier for the baby to breast feed instead of using formula. They don't seem to have the same lobby for breast feeding that is in the U.S. My friend said that during the pregnancy classes at the hospital, they emphasized breast feeding so much that if she hadn't already planned to nurse the baby, she would have felt terribly guilty.

Another thing I didn't like about Taiwan's approach to pregnancy is that they don't seem to educate people that it can harm the baby if the mother drinks while carrying the baby. My sister actually got slightly drunk at her wedding, which took place while she was 3 or 4 months along, and neither she nor any of my other friends from Taiwan had any idea that you shouldn't drink other than a very limited amount while pregnant.

Sorry for such long posts. I just have a lot to think about and really wish my parents were here to help deal with this situation. We consider my friend to be family, and my parents actually were escorted down the aisle as honorary parents at her wedding, since her family is scattered across Asia. So she often turns to my dad for advice, and he has a lot of insight into things, so he is really helpful.

But since my parents are not here because they're in Kenya, I am turning to you wise people for advice. This board has been a real blessing in helping me to write out my feelings. A friend suggested that I write a journal to help me deal with things, but this site is so much better at that for me than a journal would be.

Vicki,

This friend of yours has been beaten up by her sister and covered up the evidence. She has loud arguments with her husband and her baby has been hit (I don't care if it was not intentional, it was careless at best and a felony at its worst). It doesn't sound to me like she is the ideal mother.

The fact that this guy wanted a submissive wife means he wants to be dominant and that just isn't how things go in our culture. Women should not be treated as possessions. He should be reminded that he took vows for better or for worse and in sickness and in health. He has NO RIGHT to force his wants and desires upon her. He doesn't sound like the ideal father or husband.

You're probably sorry you posted their story considering my reply. For some reason I am just ticked off about these two people. They sound very selfish. Instead of being grateful that they have a healthy baby and are able to support themselves, they'd rather fight and stir up trouble.

I don't know how your parents will handle this but I'd go over there and knock their heads together!

Howdy Vicki,

I am not as critical of your firends as Leslie - though I honstly understand everything she wrote. Everything. but I know that every single marriage is a unique thing unto itself.

What bothers me in this situation .... I am at a loss for words .... unusual for me, I know.

What CONCERNS me are two things:

1. The baby is in a violent situation - a situation that can explode into new violence at any time. Violence is never scheduled or planned for in families - it ERUPTS at unexpected times and over unexpected things. Violence explodes. It does not explode in my home and family - though my brothers and I did have knock down drag out fights as boys - but as an adult, I have never known true violence. This baby has.

Niether you nor I can even imagine OUR parents screaming and throwing things at one another or throwing punches at one another - can we Vicki? But this baby can.

At any moment of any day or night, that baby could be the object of violence or be the victim of crossfire violence. Any moment. THAT concerns me.

2. My concern is for you, Vicki. YOU and you alone are faced with a tough decision - what can YOU do to protect this child? We have suggested an anonymous or non-anonymous call to Child Protective Services to let the professionals offer services to help this family and to PROTECT THIS CHILD.

Your initial reaction was to seek guidance here as your folks were not available. We gave you support and ideas.

Now, you have decided to punt to your parents - NOT to make any decision to protect this child, instead to wait and let your parents make the decision.

Your folks are amazing people - they have reared an amazing daughter. But I do believe the time has come for their rearing to end. You are a bright and intelligent adult. A beautiful woman of great strength and great faith. BUT the operative word here is WOMAN, not girl, not daughter, but mature WOMAN.

My dear friend, I do believe it is time for YOU and you alone to make a decision here. Your friends called you and told you about the violent situation that IS impacting this child. Not your parents, not me ... the information came to YOU and YOU alone.

But I think I am fooling myself. YOU as a mature woman HAVE made a decision about the safety and health of this child. You have decided NOT to call the professionals to help this family. You have decided NOT to do anything other than listen to the wife about the health and safety of this child.

My dear friend, I fear for YOU. I honestly and most sincerely hope that NOTHING happens to this infant today, tonight, tomorrow. I sincerely hope so - not only for the sake of the child, but for YOUR sake. It is a very dangerous game to gamble that nothing will happen when a home is violent at its core. AND IF, God forbid, something should happen to this child or the wife or husband or MIL - violence does not discriminate - then I fear for how you will grieve your decision not to call Child Protective Services.

It is obvious that both parents need to grow up. It is also obvious that they are not going to do so in the near future. As for the mother, remember, the baby is a US citizen or so called " anchor baby". The law doesn't just apply to those from Mexico. This woman should approach her citizenship from this point of view. Both of these people need some serious counciling, even if they get divorced. As for you or your parents being in the middle, it is not a good idea.

This guy should not have gotten married from what you have said about his desires in a woman. It also sounds as if this gal got married just to be able to come to the USA.

For the baby's sake, I think this gal should vacate the house and disappear, take her chances with INS and move on down the road.

You should reaffirm the need for serious counciling on both parts, wish them well and stay out of it.

Hal

Hal wrote:It is obvious that both parents need to grow up. It is also obvious that they are not going to do so in the near future. As for the mother, remember, the baby is a US citizen or so called " anchor baby". The law doesn't just apply to those from Mexico. This woman should approach her citizenship from this point of view. Both of these people need some serious counciling, even if they get divorced. As for you or your parents being in the middle, it is not a good idea.

This guy should not have gotten married from what you have said about his desires in a woman. It also sounds as if this gal got married just to be able to come to the USA.

For the baby's sake, I think this gal should vacate the house and disappear, take her chances with INS and move on down the road.

You should reaffirm the need for serious counciling on both parts, wish them well and stay out of it.

Hal

I second this. People don't change and if they do, it takes a long time. Your suggestions certainly won't make a difference because in the end they will do what they will. Tell her it is going to get worse, so GET OUT. Settle this in a safe place or she is likely to lose her child to protective services. What is most important to her?

You can't help her situation. This is her path, not yours.

I was told once that it is egotistical to try too hard to solve other peoples problems, because it robs them of the chance to learn on their own and grow. Advise is great, emotional support is wonderful, sympathy when needed is kind, but trying to pick the best possible scenerio for the situation before any action is taken is futile.

Hi Vicki, Sorry I didn’t get back to you earlier. I really think it’s up to you to take some positive action to protect this child. Just look again at some of the things you said in your last post. Please don’t be offended. I know I’m being picky but think about it.

In the two days after this incident, she didn't pick up her phone when I tried calling her. I wondered if she was hiding from me. Why would she hide from you? I suggest you believed it could be because she would know that you are seriously concerned about what she said.

She finally picked up Wednesday night, but said she couldn't talk about anything because her husband was right there. She can’t talk to you when her husband is there because he doesn’t know she has spoken to you and he will become angry if he finds out. She didn’t phone back when she was alone. Why not?

When I tried to call her last night, she texted me later that her MIL was baby-sitting (something I never thought in a million years I would hear because my friend doesn't like her MIL and is reluctant to hand her baby over to anyone, even her husband, long before this incident happened!) She has handed her baby over to someone despite usually not wanting to and it’s to someone she doesn’t like! Didn’t you say before that his mother has seen her as competition for her son's attention and tried to break them up?

and that she was on a date with her husband. So it appears that they have decided to try to do something about their relationship and not just let it go by the wayside. He is very controlling. Did he make her do this? Couldn’t it be that he insisted they go out and that his mother care for the child?

As for reporting them to child services, would it do any good if I only know things second-hand and have no evidence? I think that, as she told you directly what has happened, it would be ok. Evidence can be injury or marks on the child but then it’s too late. You said you and your family have previously seen injuries to the mother when he pinned her to the ground. That’s direct evidence of what he can do confirmed by more than one person. They both would be hard pushed to deny that she came to stay with you. Abuse by one parent on another puts children at a high risk of being caught in the crossfire.

... the welfare of their baby is something that both are likely to agree on. Is this really likely given the worries she had in even letting him hold the child? I don’t know what he thinks of her as a mother.

In this case, the baby got involved merely because he was an innocent bystander and it is very likely it will happen again.

My aunt suggested that we might be able to get them to agree that any time they start to have any kind of argument, they put the baby in his crib, so he is not exposed to the fight. Even if it never becomes physical again, just being in the middle of them yelling at each other isn't healthy for the baby, so this would be a potentially valuable thing for him anyway. This might work but, if they are having a flaming row, are they really likely to each agree to holding on for a minute while the baby is put in a safe place and can’t hear what is happening? This is a strategy to allow the parents to continue to fight and it’s the fighting that’s got to stop. A child brought up in such an environment will be emotionally harmed.

I like Richard's suggestion of having them see a pastor trained in counseling. I just don't know whether my friend would ever go. Counselling could be very helpful but both parents need to attend for the possibility of any real change. However, this still ducks the issue of the need for professional help.

She is very Americanized (something that I think her husband doesn't appreciate because I think he was hoping for the traditionally submissive Asian wife), See, you do think he is controlling.

but one thing she has retained of her Asian upbringing is the importance of maintaining face. And due to his nature I expect her husband feels the same. I doubt, in that case, either will accept intervention without it being forced on them.

When her sister beat her up a couple weeks before her wedding so badly that the neighbors called the police, she wore long-sleeve turlenecks in 90+ degree temperature, so no one at church would know that she was hurt. So she is used to being physically attacked and is prepared to accept this and to cover it up. Is the child a daughter? Should she accept this role model? (If the child’s a boy, should he grow up knowing violence to women is acceptable?)

I have met twice with a professor at Fuller Seminary... specializes in what he calls "inner healing" ... He might be someone they would be willing to see, particularly since he has no contact with anyone at my church. I doubt that meeting with someone like this once will be of any real benefit. There is a need for long term protection of the child and may need someone to be involved for years. Forgiving each other while welcome does not ensure forgiveness won’t be needed for the same thing in the future.

Someone's comment that the husband should look into ADHD meds is something I hadn't thought about but which I think is a good point. I just don't know whether the husband would be willing, since I get the feeling that he doesn't like to admit that he may have a problem with his ADHD. It would be a good move but again comes down to the possibility that he’ll need to be forced to do this.

When I talked to my therapist about this on Wednesday, he seconded Richard's initial advice that I'm not personally equipped to deal with this and should just offer a listening ear, but let her know that I'm not a professional, which is what she really needs. This is very sound advice. Just listening is not enough. Your friend is telling you these things because she needs help. If she won’t seek professional help remember that you may be the only one who knows the child needs protection from the warring parents.

I did point out to my friend that if he does file for divorce, she should bring up the fact that he stopped her from being able to call 911, which is a felony. I don’t know about this being from the UK.

... if it does come down to her being sent back to Mongolia, and he tries to get custody... Who gets custody is not the issue here. It’s protection of the child. At the moment it could be said that it’s the father who presents the physical risk to the child. The mother is showing all the signs of a parent who is unable to put the needs of their child first by taking action.

When I talked to her on the phone on Monday night, after he had stormed out of the house... Had there been another incident of violence or threat of violence? How often is this happening?

...there was no emergency situation for them to deal with, especially because I don't think she wanted to file charges against him. Reporting incidents provides evidence of the threat to the mother and wouldn’t filing charges support her call for custody if the time comes? Not taking action shows she is happy for the status quo to continue.

I wish I could just ignore the thorny side issues of her visa and look solely at the question of whether it's best for her to stay with him... Again, where is the concern for the child? Should the priority be about her staying with him?

Do you think I should mention to her that one of her neighbors might report them to child services after one of their fights? They live in a condo that is very close to the other units, so I'm sure the neighbors would be able to hear screaming. Screaming! They may or may not hear it. If they do it could be they all leave it to someone else to make the call this time. After all it’s nothing to do with them is it? Why would they take action? After all, you’ve not.

The possibility that she might lose her son or at least have restrictions put on her by child services might be enough to shake her up to make her consider changing. Very true.

It took a long time to convince her that if she were to go back to Mongolia, she probably would lose her son, but now she has a vested interest in trying to keep her marriage together. Who convinced her of this? Why wouldn’t she be able to take her son away from a man presenting a physical threat to her and her child.

Maybe I could use that as a way to get her back into counseling. Getting her into counseling is useless if she is to stay with the father. Both have to change.

Fortunately, at least I don't think that alcohol gets involved. That’s positive but I think he only drinks when with his wild buddies. So what’s he like when he gets home? Of course he could just be sleepy.

Usually after a fight, he blows over pretty fast and does his best to try to get her to discuss their problems in their marriage. This could be a very positive. Perhaps he would be receptive to professional help after all. If he were to seek it and she not comply, then he could use this against her in a custody battle.

She, on the other hand, holds a grudge a long time and will go days without speaking to him at all. Not very mature but hardly a crime.

That poor baby! Oh yes.

Vicki, can you see how this all looks? I know I have taken the worst possible view of what you said but I am a cynical social worker after all.

I don’t envy you knowing what you do. You are clearly a very caring person who has grown up in a wonderfully supportive family. You are intelligent and I can see you care deeply about the people you know and need to carefully consider what to do for the best. I bet your friend’s situation is at the forefront of your mind. I’m sorry, but I don’t think you can avoid your responsibility as an adult to protect this child if the parents can’t. I worry that all this emotional turmoil might hurt you. As a trained professional I couldn’t cope day-in, day-out dealing with families under such terrible strain as your friend. The pressure transfers to you and two years was too long for me. So, you have my very best wishes. While your parents are away, is there someone at your church who you could call to support you as you struggle with these issues?

Such a long post! and it's past 1am here!

I saw this post on Thursday, but didn't have the energy to respond right then. Soon afterwards, I talked to my therapist, who is a former social worker before he became a therapist. He told me that it would be a bad idea to report them to child services because without my being an eye-witness to the abuse, all child services would do is go to their house and ask them if there was a problem. When they said no, the people might ask to look at the baby, but even if he had any bruises a week and a half ago, which I seriously doubt, he wouldn't have any by now. So they would close the case.

But it would also close all friendship I have with my friend, so she would never come to me or my family again if there is a problem. And I don't think she has anywhere else to go to leave him if she is concerned for her safety or just needs to get away from him.

I am concerned that she is behaving like the classic victim now. I sent her an email, strongly encouraging her to get back into counseling, which I don't think she has done since the baby was born 4 months ago. I said that the husband clearly needs to learn to control his temper, and she needs to learn means of deflecting situations so that they don't escalate to where he becomes violent. And I told her that I am concerned about their continuing to live with her husband, as long as he doesn't do anything to try to control his behavior and temper, and offering the condo that my parents bought for me to live in, but which I never did move into.

She texted me back, sounding very angry, saying that she was o.k., her husband was o.k., and the baby was o.k. I was blowing things way out of proportion, that this wasn't intentional, so everything is fine and that God is taking care of them. I responded back that everything is not fine, that he has hit her at least three times and that he hit the baby this time. It wasn't intentional now, but it also won't be intentional next time. Her response was to turn it around to attack me for not babysitting for her on Monday, as she had asked earlier. She said she made a mistake to ask me and would never ask a favor of me again. But as I pointed out to her, she never called me to set the specifics up on Monday. I was waiting for her and eventually fell asleep when I hadn't heard from her. She also knew that I was in a lot of pain and unsure whether I'd be well enough to take care of the baby anyway. When she wrote back that she knew I was hurting and didn't call me because of that, I could tell she was just even madder, so I didn't continue the conversation.

However, I did text her last night to tell her that my parents got back safely, and she wrote me this morning that she was glad and was eager to see all of us and had missed all of us. So apparently she has blown over her anger.

At this point, I don't think there really is anything tangible that I can do. My therapist said that this is the dilemma that social workers often face, that they can do what they can to help someone, but unless the person wants to get help, they are stuck often seeing the abused person go back to the abuser.

I know this from personal experience, having had a dating relationship where my ex-boyfriend was sexually abusive to me. I have written about it before. Even after he raped me, I went back to him and just tried to cover over the problems instead of deal with them. So I understand the mentality; I just don't like seeing it in my friend.

And my therapist also agreed with me that her immigration status really is pertinent to the issue because even if she reported her husband for this incident, it would likely not be enough to keep the CIS from giving the baby to him if she were deported. So she has to weigh whether it is safest for her son for her to stay with the husband for another two years and do her best to protect him or leave, knowing that the husband would get the baby, and she would have no means of protecting him at all.

I thought I'd point out here that she did not marry her husband for a green card; in fact, she turned down a couple other proposals by Americans before she married her husband. She was actually in the process of getting a green card through my church, but the lawyer told her that the U.S. law required her to file as a wife before she could file as an employee, so she very reluctantly gave in and filed this way. She was really adamant that she wanted to gain her permanent residency on her own, not through marriage, which is probably in part why she didn't marry the other men who proposed to her before.

So now, I'm just going to try to keep an eye out for any changes in her. If she shows up wearing long sleeves in hot weather, it would be a hint that perhaps something is wrong. If I actually witness signs of abuse, then I would have a stronger case, but according to my therapist, just being told first-hand about it wouldn't give me any standing with child services. So the best thing is to try to get her to trust my parents and me enough to tell us if something happens again and to do our best in the meantime to get her back into counseling.

My brother had some valuable insight. He said that often men use violence against women because one of two things happens. Either the woman ignores the man so that he gets frustrated and acts out, or the man feel inadequate with his use of language against the words that the woman is using, so he hits. That makes sense. This is not to blame the woman in any way, but to give women a better understanding of how to try to do our best to keep men from turning physical.

I also told him that one thing I suggested to my friend early on in their marriage was that they should make a deal never to use the "d" word during their fights: divorce. He said that he has that deal with his wife, and during the three years of their marriage, they have not once let that word cross their lips. He once heard a pastor say in jest that murder is o.k. to discuss, just not divorce. Unfortunately, these two have been threatening divorce against each other since their first fight, a week or two into their marriage. That's really unhealthy.

I also like a deal my brother has with his wife. If they have a conflict that they can't resolve between the two of them within the space of a week, they will find a couple who have a solid marriage and have been married a long time and ask them for help in sorting things out. What I sense my friend is doing is just trying to ignore the conflicts instead of dealing with them. That's what I did with my ex-boyfriend. And the problems just keep arising over and over again.