Women in Society in 21st Century

but we do still expect men to hold open doors for women or offer women a seat not the other way round unless because of age, also at ameal if a lady leaves the table the men rise but is a man left the table the women would remain seated.

Brent's last comment led me to wonder...if you follow the Bible, God created all creatures male and female. Why didn't he just make mankind male and female from the get-go? I'm not expecting an answer here but it made me wonder.

Personally, I don't feel man is better than woman or the other way around. I believe that men and women were made to compliment each other. We each have characteristics that improves on the other. I look at long term married couples and one would be so lost without the other.

Dawn - interesting point. Perhaps that's seen more where you come from but where I live, any man that does the gentlemanly thing is more appreciated. It's very rare to have doors held, opened or chairs pulled out. I don't know that it's an equality thing more than a respect thing though. Perhaps someone else can fill in a blank or two here for me.

HeelerLady wrote:Dawn - interesting point. Perhaps that's seen more where you come from but where I live, any man that does the gentlemanly thing is more appreciated. It's very rare to have doors held, opened or chairs pulled out. I don't know that it's an equality thing more than a respect thing though. Perhaps someone else can fill in a blank or two here for me.

I think you're right, Becky, it's more of a respect thing. I've opened doors for men and men have opened doors for me--it's being polite, respectful and helpful. I think those old-fashioned "gentlemanly" ways of showing respect have changed, even where I live, which is rural and very conservative. There are some older folks who definitely always follow them, but in my age group and younger, I find few men who follow these rules. Why shouldn't I have the same respect for man--it depends on who appears to need help more in a particular circumstance. Sometimes, it just comes down to the golden rule of doing for others what you would like done for you.

I was going to make the same comment that HeelerLady made about Tecky's statement that men stand up for women or open doors for them. I was actually really taken aback when my brother did that for me when he came up to the U.S. the first time after he got married. His wife had trained him to hold up the car door for ladies. But I think that was the first time I noticed a man making a specific effort to open the car door for a woman. Here, I do see people holding doors to buildings open for each other, but that is based more upon order of who arrived first rather than the sex of the person.

its a shame society has changed but people we do have as friends do still carry out this ettiquette but i do still think that MOSTLY us ladies do like the protection and lead that men offer us.

Don't have time to read all these long posts right now. Just wanted to comment on a couple of things.

I agree with Brent on the "guys" frequently getting the raw end of deals on divorce/child support. And this is coming from a woman who did not get child support and raised her kids alone. I see "guys" getting screwed all the time.

On the topic of 2 incomes vs. 1 as in the 50's, 60's. Forget the fact that people think they have to have a mansion and 2,3, 4 cars (they do not need that!). But, what about technology. We never had cell phone bills, TV bills (TV was free), internet bills, etc.). You might say these are unnecessary also, but without, they make life a lot harder to get ahead in this age. For example, if your kids needs the internet for homework (which mine did all the time), you can either take them to the library everyday where they wait in line for a computer or have a computer. It is hard to even apply for a job without a computer. Those trips can get pretty tiring. You could live without a cell phone. But the peace of mind they give parents to get a hold of their kids and for kids to contact their parents is invaluable not to mention emergencies.
Now cable TV isn't really necessary (TV period isn't necessary), but that is something we didn't have to pay for at all 30 years ago. It is just expensive to keep up with the "times" instead of the "Jone's".

I taught my kids to open doors for people, let people off the elevator before you get on, give up their seat for the elderly or anyone that needs the seat more than they do, regardless of sex, to say please and thank you, basically to be POLITE! Which is something that is sadly lacking in our society. Some men are afraid to be polite because of the feminist backlash and some women are so militant that they see opening a door as a reflection on their "inferior" status. Puuulease! I personally like it when a man opens doors for me. I don't see it as I too weak to open it myself, I see it as being polite. And if I happen to reach the door first, I will hold it for him, again being polite.

I've worked for female bosses who were jerks to work for as they lost any empathy as they achieved their supervisory roles and also worked for men who totally respected the women in their employ and treated them as equals. NOT like they were men, but as equals in the brain and capabilty departments. So in my experience two of the worst people I've worked for were female and most of the men, except one, have been great to work for, including the ones I work with now. I work in finance which has been male dominated and have noticed a change in the way this business is run over the last few decades. Thank god, women have achieved much more equality as our ability to run offices and advise on monetary matters has been recognized.

I'm very lucky in that my business family is just that, a sort of family. We've been together enough years to respect each other for who we are.

The "gentlemanly thing to do" is very confusing for myself and many other guys. What is old fashioned and what is just being polite? I've been scowled at a couple times for opening a door for a lady. "Yes ma'am", very old fashioned by also a word denoting respect and politeness. Some women don't mind it and some get really annoyed at it.

How are us guys supposed to know?

Here's huge dilemma that lit up the local talk shows for over a week. In Bellingham WA there was an amateur boxing league that is open to men and women. It was all men for several years until a women joined. They all trained together which included practice sparing with all the protective gear. Then comes the first match. The men on the competing team said they are not going to box with the women. Hitting a women goes against everything society has taught them. Men are biologically pre-programmed to protect women. That's not chauvinistic, it's a survival instinct.

But half the women the news media interviewed said they were being sexist and the other half agreed with the men on the opposing team.

The female boxer had the attitude of "Bring it on"!!!!!! "They're just afraid I will win".

To win a boxing match you either beat your opponent until they can no longer fight, or it's no longer safe to continue, or get in more hits.

I personally could never, ever do that to a woman. It would not matter if she was a trained boxer, knew the risks and even enjoyed it. Call me a chauvinist but I could never go into a boxing ring and beat a woman senseless or to the point of unconsciousness.

Any man no matter how progressive, pro-equal rights, pro-woman etc will have a line that they can not and will not cross.

But we can not help but notice how much our society has de-masculated men over the last couple decades. We have droves of boys growing up in broken homes without a positive male role model. Pop culture, the media and radical groups have intertwined masculinity with chauvinism and misogyny. The wonderful diverse differences in the sexes are scorned and demonized instead of celebrated.

But one of the most prominent trademarks in western culture is everything has to be extreme this, extreme that, extreme everything. The baby is constantly being thrown out with the bath water. What was intended to be a fix ended up a massacre. Government is famous for taking a great idea and blowing it up into a useless nightmare that ends up aggravating the very problem is was supposed to fix.

And for a caring responsible man there potentially will be more confusing incidents. I will not let a woman in my clinic pick up a 50 Lbs box of printer paper. Biology and physics dictates that she will have a far greater chance of hurting her back. A back injury will be just as painful for an old fashioned traditional type woman as it would a feminist. Pain does not discriminate.

Do you remember the song "Where have all the cowboys gone"? We're still here, we've always been here and we want and need to stay here. Ladies.......Let us be chivalrous, let us be the knight in shinning armor. We don't do it to demean you, it's who we are and part of what we need to be masculine. Some of us still have pride, dignity, respect for women and the overwhelming urge to do the right thing.

I know a great way to fix the dilemma about boxing. Don't do it! Don't hit a woman. Don't hit a man. We're supposed to be civilized!

I consider myself a feminist but I do not get insulted when a man holds a door or calls me ma'am.

The only time I would be offended is if a man insisted he do something because he thought I wasn't smart enough.

You can be chivalrous all you want around me, Brent. ;-)

i try to be courteous. as i've gotten older i have a very slow burning fuse and don't get too irritated easily.

i always open the door for ladies. i'm courteous and open the doors for just about everyone. i've never been grumped at for opening a door.

i've run into a few problems in crowded doctors waiting rooms. it is not in my best interest or safety to stand just for someone to sit because of my own health problems, but i've given my seat a few times.

i think money is the root of a lot of problems (duh, highly profound thought...sorry).

equality and the family structure--things are very changed and twisted from the days of when one income could support a solid middle class lifestyle.

with the total devastation of a manufacturing based economic system, things aren't going to level off anytime soon.

if we add the competition of men and women for the same "fixed" amount of job openings we see a slide of economic standing due to the myriad of costs.

when you boil down what is really needed and what isn't in our lives, then the picture can become clearer.

but, i don't think this is a good sign. we can see that in our economy. deflation rumors. jobless recovery (ha, i don't there is a recovery). live within your means (which is sound), etc.... i think it's prep that things in the future aren't going to be better than the past.

i think this may be a signal of further class divide. hopefully not.

I was listening to "one income then = two incomes now" discussion on the radio the otehr day. Several people raised the issue of yesterday expenses vs. today's expenses:

Then - one car was sufficient for most families
Today - Both wage earners usually need a car - two car payments, oil, gas, etc.

Then - three FREE TV channels
Today - Cable/satellite TV with base of around $40 + more for more channels and HBO, Showtime, etc.

Then - one simple, land line phone - long distance call meant someone died
Today - landline + cellphone for many - multiple cellphone + texting costs for most families, Long distance = quick and easy

Then - Board games, card parties, cup of coffee at the kitchen table - people actually had conversations (imagine that)
Today - Internet access + decent computer is almost required if you have kids in school or want a life online.

Cost of above then?

ONE car, ONE phone line, ONE Television in the living room

Additional Cost Today?

Additional Car (+one for kids - gas and oil and insurance)
Cellphones + massive long distance + texting costs
Internet Access + New Computer every 5 years or less (Access alone = about $60.00 + a month here)
Cable TV Costs ($40 / month and up)

It became real obvious to me real quickly that it needed a second wage earner just to support the technology we "need" today. Plues every additional wage earner = increased costs in clothing and food (working couples use take-out and restaurants more than then.)

Are we better off now? I have to admit that I adore the Internet, the cellphone is a treat ... not to mention the DVD player. But I miss neighbors dropping in for a cup of coffee with my Mom, playing monopoly or rummy on hot summer nights with my family and friends, and those great summer evenings of kick the can and running races in the back yard - much more fun that video games to me.

but I am NOT willing to give up the internet in order to get my kid-friends to give up video games. Guess I AM part of "the problem" if a problem exists.

I can completely agree with all of that. Somewhere in the recent past we felt that we can have our cake and eat it to. Every so often I will watch "Leave it to Beaver" just to keep myself grounded and aware of what has happened to us, for better or worse.

Our society had to progress but in the process we collectively went insane with excess and greed. Now I fear the US will become Rome part II. We fit the template almost perfectly.

Yeah, a lot of today's "needs" are actually just "wants". We can learn to live simpler lives without so much commercialism and "stuff".

Another comparison is the size of closets 50 years ago compared to now. They used to be about 3 feet wide and hold the total wardobe of two people. Now many people have walk-in closets, and sometimes "his" and "hers".

I'd feel lost without the internet, cable and my cell phone, but all the extra doodads aren't really necessary when one gets down to it.

I think we'd probably be healthier and happier if we made do with less "stuff", and new isn't necessarily better.

"Leave it to Beaver" was never reality. At least it was not reality in my neighborhood. No mothers wore dresses, high heels and pearls during the day (while attending to their chores).

People forget the bad parts of living in the past and idealize it. While there are plenty of things which seem to be much worse in the culture of the present, I wouldn't go back to those days for anything.

Women with migraine were deemed emotional. It was all in their heads. The poor men who suffered with the disease had to keep it to themselves out of fear of being considered weak.