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Touchy subject - dog/cat owners and the guests...

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estre004
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Post  CluelessKitty Tue May 25, 2010 9:53 pm

How do you deal with guests who won't listen when you ask them to please do NOT feed the dogs scraps
at the table,
and what do you do when the dog owners ignore your repeated requests for please to control you dog/cat who begs and/or blatantly steals food off the plates (yuck) on/at the tables?

Risa
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Post  Guest Tue May 25, 2010 10:16 pm

attach strips of bacon onto guests....let dogs eat guests. problem solved. Razz

outside of saying "hey bonehead, knock it off" or moving your pets outside or to another room, it can be pretty tough.

Guest
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Post  AuntieBubbs Tue May 25, 2010 10:49 pm

Honestly, I'd say its the pet owner's responsibility ultimately - if as the pet owner you don't want your pet fed scraps, and your pet is one that begs for them, then its your responsibility to put the pet outside/out of the room. Yeah, it's a bummer that your guests won't abide by your request to not feed the begging pet, but it's still your responsibility as the owner of the pet to put the pet out of the room when the meal is going on or else accept that the pet is going to beg and probably be given scraps.
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Post  Hal Tue May 25, 2010 10:56 pm

It is really rather academic. Put the pet outside before dinner. If the guest still feeds the pet, put the guest outside. Either way, problem solved.

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Post  HeelerLady Wed May 26, 2010 6:49 am

Risa,

Well if I have guests (I have 3 beggars) and the worst offenders get put into crates. Not just because of the begging but some get so excited and in my house - much easier to ward off a dog fight than to try to break one up when you have company. If I had perfect angels for dogs, depended on the person but if there was more than 1 guest I'd still crate the dogs for dinner. Just easier to not deal with it.

If I'm out to someone's house. Well that's up to the host. Most owners don't like their critters mauling their guests. I've never had that problem but then most of the people I know with critters actually want to instill good manners in their pet and prevent the behavior from happening. Frankly, I've never had a problem with a cat. Most cats I know aren't social enough to want to be around folks that are eating and are usually hiding.

Just my own rules and observations,

Becky
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Post  Paradox Wed May 26, 2010 7:08 am

My pups get locked in the garage, they are terrible mooches.

My SIL had three (yes three! at one time!) Great Danes, a grey hound, and a shit zhu. All of them begged. When you ate you had to keep your elbows on the table, spread out to protect you plate. Not only that, the little dog was allowed ON THE TABLE!! The Danes would rest their heads on the table at your elbow, drooling. Yes, it's about as appetizing as it sounds.

Oh, and when the owners are done eating the dogs get to lick the plates, so when I'm done eating they expect to lick off mine too. EEEWWW.

We have never said a word, they obviously know it's a problem and choose not to do anything about it. However, they don't get as much company as they used too and they don't understand why. I don't eat breakfast there anymore, if I do go on Sunday mornings I just drink coffee.

A good friend of ours if also a friend of theirs. They continually wonder why he won't come over for Sunday breakfast. Well, because he did it once and was accosted by dogs. He told us he's not that fond of dogs in the first place and doesn't want to share his plate with one.

My future DIL refuses to eat anything over there and as a consequence on holidays will only stay about 1/2 hour. This was after she saw one of the Danes licking the turkey as it sat on the counter waiting to be served to guests. (and yes, it was still served).
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Post  HeelerLady Wed May 26, 2010 7:18 am

Charlotte,

All I can say is...EWWWWW! I thought my dogs were bad but that takes the cake and if they were caught licking the food it would be dumped. Just gives me the creeps thinking about it.
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Post  Hal Wed May 26, 2010 9:22 am

That is just plain disgusting. I could see a cat licking the turkey, but a dog? I've seen what those things lick. (just kidding). The animals belong on the floor and away from the kitchen, in the garage or outside at meal times. One can catch serious deseases from animals walking on the table.

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Post  Paradox Wed May 26, 2010 9:38 am

I haven't gone over to their house since they got the newest Great Dane. I watched the 100+ lb. dog jump on my BIL's back when he wasn't looking. With my back I can not take the chance of being blind sided by an out of control dog. She even jumped on my 80 year old MIL! And the dog is still living there (believe me, it wouldn't be if it was my house! I've taken all kinds of rescues in, but when I've gotten one that is dangerous, out it goes...).

These people go overboard.
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Post  estre004 Wed May 26, 2010 11:11 am

Personally, I wish people would leave their own dogs at home. Don't get me wrong. I love dogs and have been a dog owner myself. Unless you know the person you are visiting genuinely does not have a problem with your dog, there is a chance they find it very irritating. I'm speaking of 2 dogs in particular whose owners do not go anywhere without their dog. One barks constantly and it isn't a wolf wolf bark. It is a yappy one (hate yappy dogs). She insists her dog give everyone a kiss when she leaves. She actually quit talking to one of her friends that made a comment on shutting her dog up. Another dog owner brings her huge dog to my house, and he tromps my flowers and paces.

Dogs are animals, not people! I love animals and they are part of the family but they are still "animals" and should be treated as animals, not people. They are much happier that way. My animals all outlive their average lifespan because they are treated as ANIMALS. Would you want to be treated as an animal? No, you want to be treated as a person. Animals want to be animals.

I want to emphasize that if you are Ok with a particular animal being over or you go somewhere with your own animal and the person doesn't care whether he is eating table scraps, licking plates, or whatever, so be it. But if you do not know this, please keep your pets at home. In your own home, I suppose do what you want and the company can decide whether they will want to be a guest in the future.

Cats I can't imagine wanting to visit other's houses period and if you have your own, like someone else said, they are content hiding until the company leaves.

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Post  AuntieBubbs Wed May 26, 2010 11:29 am

Charlotte, my first reaction was "ewww." My second reaction was to laugh out loud, esp. at the turkey Razz
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Post  CluelessKitty Wed May 26, 2010 4:27 pm

Crate? Crate!? Thanks for the good intention Becky but you probably didn't realize I am furious enemy of the dogs crates.
Nope, not a crate for me. But I agree probably the best idea is to remove the dogs to the other room for the moment we are seated at the table. (we were having party outside on the sundeck, and there was a lot of travelling between the kitchen and the deck with the door left open)

I probably should start doing that from now on, at least I'll try and hope one of the dogs won't whine and howl meantime being separated, lolol.

Risa
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Post  crt Wed May 26, 2010 5:11 pm

I don't understand why guests would bring their pets into your house. Why do they bring them along? It just seems rude to me. Unless you and the guest have a prior agreement that your pets will play together - away from where you're having your meal.

The discussion does bring a particular Thanksgiving dinner to mind. The turkey was done. We had sliced it up in preparation for the casual, buffet type dinner we were having. One of my roommates had a very clever Siamese cat. The cat knew better than to get up on the table and would never try it while we were watching, which we certainly were.

However, the cat had apparently very carefully scoped out the location of everything on the table. As I said the turkey was cut up. So as we were looking at the table, one paw came up under the tablecloth and started inching towards a drumstick. The paw, without touching anything else, snagged the drumstick and pulled it back under the table. We let her keep her drumstick but made her eat it outside. It would have made an amusing video.

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Post  estre004 Thu May 27, 2010 7:38 am

Chris - I'm with you on this one. Love the story about the cat. How could you be mad at an animal that really thought out a plan.

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Post  HeelerLady Thu May 27, 2010 8:31 am

CluelessKitty wrote:Crate? Crate!? Thanks for the good intention Becky but you probably didn't realize I am furious enemy of the dogs crates.
Nope, not a crate for me. But I agree probably the best idea is to remove the dogs to the other room for the moment we are seated at the table. (we were having party outside on the sundeck, and there was a lot of travelling between the kitchen and the deck with the door left open)

I probably should start doing that from now on, at least I'll try and hope one of the dogs won't whine and howl meantime being separated, lolol.

Risa

Risa,

Just curious, but what do you have against crates? Below are the reasons why I use them for my dogs.

I know I never was a fan of them before Abby. Abby has to be crated when I'm away or she gets destructive - I think it's a bit of separation anxiety. It also works when I don't want her mauling guests. She gets so excited that she jumps and then pees.

Ditto is crated even more. I've only had him 2 weeks but he's got some house-training issues and if I'm not there to watch him, he's in one. I don't like it, but I'd rather have him make a mess in his crate than to find random "surprises" throughout the house. He's still peeing in his crate overnight and if I'm not watching him like a hawk during the day, he'll poop in the house.

Cindy Lou was crated like Ditto with her previous owner but now has free run of the house. She's a good girl and doesn't need one. Well other than when she goes in one for a time-out - usually when she's overly stimulated and is working her way to being aggressive.

I don't believe in keeping dogs in a crate any more than necessary and would like to get all dogs to the state where they wouldn't need one but don't think that's likely. It's for their safety and my sanity.

Becky
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Post  tecky Thu May 27, 2010 8:43 am

Crate training is actually recommended for dogs, not as a punishment but as part of their training. Through their evolution, dogs have been den dwellers and like their own, secure spaces. It is also helpful in the potty training process. As long as it is not used as a punishment, it is a positive experience for a dog.

I don't keep my Dolly crated, unless we take her with us traveling and we are visiting in a house where she is not welcome. At home, the crate door is always left open for her and she likes to go in and sit/sleep in it. It's her "house". I have both a small crate and a very large crate. The very large crate is the one we keep open for her all the time. It is furnished with an old down feather pillow in a pillowcase, rugs and blankets which she will rearrange for her comfort. She likes it in there.

She also has a pet bed on top her crate. She likes to jump up there and sit in her pet bed so she can watch out the window or sleep in the sunshine.
flower
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Post  HeelerLady Thu May 27, 2010 10:11 am

tecky wrote:Crate training is actually recommended for dogs, not as a punishment but as part of their training. Through their evolution, dogs have been den dwellers and like their own, secure spaces. It is also helpful in the potty training process. As long as it is not used as a punishment, it is a positive experience for a dog.

I don't keep my Dolly crated, unless we take her with us traveling and we are visiting in a house where she is not welcome. At home, the crate door is always left open for her and she likes to go in and sit/sleep in it. It's her "house". I have both a small crate and a very large crate. The very large crate is the one we keep open for her all the time. It is furnished with an old down feather pillow in a pillowcase, rugs and blankets which she will rearrange for her comfort. She likes it in there.

She also has a pet bed on top her crate. She likes to jump up there and sit in her pet bed so she can watch out the window or sleep in the sunshine.
flower

You said it Becky. Smile I don't use it to punish them. A time-out I don't consider punishment, it is so that she can resolve her anxiety and calm down (lasts 5- 10 minutes). CL actually will just go and sleep in her crate - I've made them nice and comfy and it's her house. Smile

I had to laugh when you said you put a bed on top of the crates. I started putting thick blankets on the top of mine because Ditto likes to jump up on them, see the world, bark and nap. Smile
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Post  tecky Thu May 27, 2010 2:55 pm

Dolly patrols the neighborhood from atop her crate.

She watches who goes in and out of our 96-year-old neighbor's house (and barks if it is someone different).

She barks if someone or something comes in our driveway or on our property: cars, people, deer, dogs, pheasants, skunks. She will actually come down to the basement and get me if she feels I need to take action right away.

She also patrols the cattle/horse pens behind us and lets us known if someone different is over there.

Dolly doesn't sleep as much as many dogs, so she keeps pretty busy watching everyone. Laughing
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Post  CluelessKitty Thu May 27, 2010 5:26 pm

One must understand the nature of dog as an animal in the first place to understand what a cruel mistake a crate is.
(the same as declawing cats, btw)

Nature made a dog an alert, curious and investigative creature. And rightly so, as apart from being a predator its sole purpose is to eventually be a guardian.

The younger it is, the more mobile, more watchful and investigative it is. Young puppies are alerted to the tiniest sound, smell and sight. And they rush to examine the source of it, and they SHOULD BE.

Crating such a vigorous animal whose instincts should be encouraged for proper development, is missing the point.
Keeping such an energetic, unaccustomed (by the very nature) to a small confined space animal is cruel. Especially a growing puppy, who must have a freedom of freely moving and investigating at will.

Crates at one point were cunningly introduced by the pet industry
and they as any business had to do something to improve the attractive market consisting of millions of families,
to make them buy dogs.

But how to do that because families weren't buying on the account that puppies/dogs create problems - they make mess, they chew shoes, they get everywhere,
have to be constantly watched?

And that is how crate was introduced as "helpful", "benign", "safe" "pets like it". It's anything but.
It's all cunning marketing directed at people to make them buy a pet. How sad.
People who otherwise wouldn't buy a pet because they don't have a time for it.
Needless to answer, who pays the price?

Don't be fooled- crate was invented only to make you buy something you otherwise wouldn't buy in the first place.
A puppy forced to spend their first months confined in a crate, has no choice but to get used to the prison it is in, and eventually it gets accustomed to it as its place. So, naturally, it looks like "it loves it".
Of course it will sleep in it - you teach it to sleep there.
Of course it will retreat to it in case of anything - after all YOU taught it this is the place to be when something goes wrong. etc etc.

The same goes for the dogs who are taught to live in a dog houses - they just don't know any better.

Unfortunately, as you can plainly see people took to crates like moths to the light. It's so easy to just shut the helpless animal in the crate and go after your own business... never mind that taking an animal home should be an act of consideration and understanding that a lot of time consuming work and responsibility is involved here.

As for the 'problem' dogs - with due respect, anyone who have any problems with their dog/s it's simply because of improper or lack of training, not previous lack of crate.

Dogs jumping on people, messing in the house, barking, etc is a result of the owner's training mistakes or lack of control over dogs, often going along with lack of proper amount of exercising.
This is particularly glaringly obvious in the shows like Dog Whisperer or At the End of My Leash.

Crate does NOT fixes these problems, it merely covers them.
Of course any dog who's crated at the moment can not jump on anybody while in the crate. But does it learned anything from being in the crate? No, it doesn't!
Yet the point it is to teach your dog to behave at anytime, not to jump on people anytime, crated or not.

here's what PETA thinks of crates:
http://blog.peta.org/archives/Crating_Leaflet.pdf

Well I am sorry for my soap opera, but like I've said I feel strongly about crating.

Risa
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Post  HeelerLady Fri May 28, 2010 8:37 am

Risa,

I asked for your view point and I think we will just have to agree to disagree. Smile Two of my dogs are rescues and by the time you get a 2 year old dog they can have some pretty ingrained problems.

I'm just waking up from a long night. My heelers got in a fight last night and Abby ended up going to the ER for stitches and Lou I'm watching today as I think she's got a sprain.

As for Abby jumping...well it hasn't been for lack of trying to teach her not to. She is actually the best trained dog of the bunch and this is one habit I just can't seem to break (and I've been trying since she was 3 months). And I do agree that a lot of problems can be solved with adequate training - I've seen it happen so no arguments there. Lou is a lot better now that she's had some training but there are some things that take a long time to work through.

My dogs are crated for their safety. After last night, unless I'm conscious, only 1 dog out at a time. I try to keep them crated the minimum amount of time and hate putting them in them.

Abby I'm more worried about getting into something and poisoning herself or hurting herself. She used to have house privileges but has some separation anxiety and destroys things and I'm afraid of her getting into something and hurting herself. I would love to not have to crate her or any of my dogs for that matter.

Ditto, I will eventually be able to let out. I want him to get settled into the routine here first and we will work on potty-training. I think it might be me. I went to work yesterday and I came home to a dry crate. So I think he wants to be with me but we need to finish up this training and then he'll be set.

Cindy Lou is the one that you use as your example. She was crated 18 hours a day her entire life until she came to me. She's come a long way in the last 2 years but she used to be extremely territorial about her crate. It was her space and for the most part hers stays open. Unfortunately she has the most issues and I don't use it as a punishment. When she goes in, it's not because she's been naughty, its so that she can calm herself before escalating to something more. I'm always looking for ways to help her learn to calm herself so I don't have to use it.

PETA...is that People Eating Tasty Animals? Wink I know what it stands for and as far as I'm concerned it is a waste of space and breath. Sort of like the Humane Society of the United States. But I'm not going to get on my soapbox as I could go on for a long time on those two. I come from a different background and view point and see things differently than you. And will agree to disagree. Smile

Becky
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Post  CluelessKitty Fri May 28, 2010 8:53 pm

Well, yes I guess we have to disagree but allow me please add my two more cents at the end.

You say "ingrained problems" - yes, I can understand how a rescued dogs can have pretty bad previous experiences,
and therefore bad habits also.
But how is it that trainers like Cesar Millan are able to eventually force any dog listen to him regardless of their bad previous habits?
I suppose it's because he is pretty disciplined himself, and he has no illusion that a dog is a dog not a human and he treats his dogs accordingly, whereas most of us tend to attribute human qualities to our pets, incorrectly.
After watching number of his shows I can see why my dogs doesn't listen to me as well I wish they would - it's because I am lazy in certain departments and between me, my daughter and my husband there is absolutely no consistence in training style.
Certainly is not that the dogs have "stubborn streak" or are old dogs used to their ways by now, or whatever.

As for crating for safety, again if you keep a dog in a crate since puppy-hood, it creates a circle where
a dog kept crated wants desperately to explore, and can't, so no wonder once it's let out it goes berserk
and might cause harm to itself.
The more you keep it crated, the worse it become.

And mind you, you admitted you hate to keep them crated. So, crate is not so hot after all is it?

And yeah, you see- the dog with most issues is the dog kept crated for the longest period of time- 18 hrs!!
it's pure torture. For such an energetic, exploring creature by nature as a dog, a puppy particularly
18 hrs crated in a space barely allowing it to turn around is like for a human to be confined in a box where he can only lie down and sit up. No standing up possible.

btw We are only discussing why I am against crates and why I believe they should be outlawed.
I am not attacking nor judging you personally, please remember that.


Also, if you remove the door off the crate you create this way sort of a doggy house and this is much much better
this actually is something a dog can appreciate.
So if Cindy Lou feels safe at her doggy house (which is understandable, considering her upbringing) why not let her be. I would just remove the doors permanently.
Of all the crates, actually.


PETA- I know PETA has some issues but in describing what is a dog crate and why it shouldn't be used it actually was pretty accurate.

Risa






.
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Post  tecky Sat May 29, 2010 6:26 am

Some reliable resources advocating crate training (mind you, not isolating dogs in crates for long periods of time or their entire life, such as incompetent breeders and some hoarders) as part of an overall training program for a well-behaved, well-rounded, happy dog:

http://www.bestfriends.org/theanimals/pdfs/dogs/cratetraining.pdf
http://www.cuhumane.org/topics/crate.html
http://www.drilldog.com/drilldog-articles/crate-training-your-dog.htm
http://community.sessionswithcesar.com/forums/p/26378/425907.aspx
http://www.proplan.com/advice/puppy/training/crate-training
flower sunny
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Post  HeelerLady Sat May 29, 2010 6:48 am

Risa,

I know it's not personal and I'm not taking it that way. This is a discussion. Smile

My point is - I only use crates when I have to. I could leave Abby out (and I periodically try leaving her out for short periods of time while I'm gone) but she gets into trouble. I would rather use the evil crate and know my dog will be safe when I get home than to not use it and come home to a seriously ill or injured dog.

Abby was crate trained when she was a baby (and her crate was huge - she could have run circles in it) and as she got older she got more privileges. And it was only used when I was out out of the house or sleeping. I was able to be with her 24/7 for the first 6 months of her life and once she was potty trained she was allowed out at night.

Ditto is used to being in a crate and I hope to phase it out as he gets used to things. He actually slept through the night last night. Thank God!

Cindy, she is the extreme case. When I found out how much she was crated I wanted to stop that. The only reason her previous owner gave for crating her was that she was destructive. Funny, she's the least destructive of the bunch.

When she came to me had zero obedience skills (other than knowing her name and NO) and now listens and gets it. She also wasn't socialized so she never learned how to properly interact with other dogs and has fear aggression issues. She also doesn't know how to internally deal with excitement and we are working on it but she tends to bite when that happens. Oh and she weighed almost 80 pounds. Poor dog could barely walk - she's now down to a trim 53. Smile Her crate is also permanently open - I've got crap piled on top of the door so it doesn't shut. Razz

One thing on crate size. All my dogs have an appropriately sized wire crate. They can all sit down, stand up, turn around, get comfy and have adequate ventilation. If they can't do those things, the dog needs a new larger crate. I would agree that one that they can't do those things it would be completely miserable and is unfair and mean to a dog.

I've seen a few of Cesar Milan's shows. For the most part he makes it seem simple. Part of it is he's a true alpha. I took Cindy to a trainer for a private lesson and the trainer noted that I'm not dominant enough. Something I'm working on but it's really hard. It's one of those things I have a hard time figuring out but is necessary. Smile

Becky
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Post  CluelessKitty Sat May 29, 2010 4:36 pm

But may I point out Becky that you have to crate your dogs Becky because they were crated in the first place since the beginning (puppyhood).
If they weren't you wouldn't have to continue doing it (or if you had more energy perhaps you would be able to change it).

Now off to comment these links
No dog "instinctively avoids soiling the place where it sleeps".
It is taught by their mother, and in the wild their mother changes the den fairly often to avoid predators.
beside, dogs are domesticated animals for good 2000 years by now so constantly comparing them to the wild animals is not always practical.
people like those who wants to market these crates will use that whenever it comes handy in argument.
it is not correct, though.

So, right from the beginning, the very first link is dead wrong , is misleading,
intended into lulling people into thinking they are doing something right where in fact they flat out don't.
Den is not locked, not ever, that is a very important distinction.
And now feeding in the crate? oh please.

Once again, the so called "benefits" of crate training are nothing more but avoiding the full work that is involved with taking care of an animal. It is like having a baby and immediately handing it off to a nanny most of the time so you can go about your own business as usual., like you weren't having a baby at all.
Arguments like "it's for the dog's own safety" etc is just a rationalization, nothing more. One just don't want to have work hard.

An injured and/or sick animal hardly ever protest against being in a crate, it is in such state that it doesn't matter to it where or how it is carried. In a worst scenario, it can be give a tranquilizer.
Granted, I never had to put either of my dogs into a crate but I did carried my cats occasionally to a vet in a container, cats who never saw a crate in their life. They had no problem being put into a bag or a carrier and apart form trying to get out frantically once or twice they sat there quietly all the time.
I suspect the same would go for dogs. Dogs are smart, they sense when the circumstances are unusual so they behave accordingly.


I can knock off any of these arguments;

* You can enjoy peace of mind when leaving your dog alone, knowing that nothing can be soiled or destroyed and that he is comfortable, safe, and not developing bad habits.

You are NOT teaching your dog anything by crating it.
what ?it learns by sitting in a crate, while bored numb out of it mind? how possibly it can "NOT develop bad habits"??? it doesn't develops any ANYTHING in the first place because of the crate!!!

You are not teaching your CRATED dog how to behave while you are not home, and every time you let it out of the crate you have a demolishing machine on your hands - wonder why?

* You can housebreak your pet more quickly by using the close confinement to motivate your pet to wait until taken outside, since canines naturally avoid soiling their den.

or, it could be exactly the opposite - if it considers their crate an "inside" it will make a mess outside of the crate readily in your very home.


* You can travel with your pet without risk of the the dog getting loose and becoming lost or interfering with safe driving.

to a point, a crate not fastened with a seat belt is as dangerous as a dog traveling loose, plus there also are car seats and harnesses for pets available.

* Your dog can enjoy the security and privacy of den of his own to which he can retreat when tired or stressed.


you can make a dog den out of anything i.e TV box, designated space in the closet, designated armchair anything.

* Your dog can avoid much of the fear and confusion caused by your reaction to problem behavior.

?????? what's wrong with this picture? if your dog has to retreat from you in fear and confusion!!
but...
once again, it can have a den made out of anything else. second, why not avoid bad reaction, even better - problem behaviour?


* Since he can more easily adapt to staying in unfamiliar places as long as he has his familiar "security blanket" along, your pet can be included in family outings, instead of being left behind alone.

What is "unfamiliar place"? If you go for a walk to a park where you haven't been before, well most parks are the same. If you go to Disneyland, well this no place for dogs anyway.
If there is a family outing where a dog can come along, then this is the right outing for a dog.
If there is family outing where a dog may cause a problem then perhaps this isn't the best outing for a dog,
and it probably be better if it stayed home.


I think that's enough since they are more or less the same arguments.

Risa
CluelessKitty
CluelessKitty

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Post  CluelessKitty Sun May 30, 2010 12:39 am

I however would like to make a point that I recognize your wonderful job you are doing with these dogs Becky
I myself am yet to rescue a dog or a cat so big kudos to you girl!

Risa
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