Please give me your opinion on this. Migraines and inflammation.

Try to read it with an open mind, I know it wont sit well with most of you, but what if you didnt know what you know.
Would it make any sense at all. I have a good reason for starting this one.
And I value your constructive opinion. Please try not to just say it's crap....why is it crap?
Thanks
P

1) Migraines are caused by inflammation of the tissue surrounding the nerves in the head and upper spinal column pressing
upon the nerves themselves resulting in pain.

This inflammation is caused by third party infections (in this case viral) that have located in the surrounding area.

2) By eliminating the infection(s) the inflammation of the tissue has to cease to occur as the cause of the inflammation is
no longer there.

Thus, if the inflammation isn’t there any more, the pressure it puts on the nerves is no longer there to cause migraines.

PS One further thought to ponder…scientists agree that the more complicated an answer to a problem is, the more likely it is the wrong answer

If it were viral wouldn't they be able to find the common denominator between migrainers via blood test of something similar?

newtothis wrote:If it were viral wouldn't they be able to find the common denominator between migrainers via blood test of something similar?

Good thought Debbie, indeed, you would think so....Thank you.

I wouldn't discount the idea of a virus causing the inflammation. I think there is so little known and understood about migraines that there may be a host of possibilities and opportunities to find treatments.

the theory sounds kinda reasonable to me. 2 out of 3 times i was given a toradol shot in either doc's office or the ER, it worked to get me feeling like a new person.

one doctor described toradol as "like taking 100 aspirins" at once. but of course, it is an entirely different drug.

however, i had bad and lingering skin effects, and thus determined i would not ever take heavy-duty anti-inflammatories again.

now that i'm a bit older, and my skin is getting so thin, (although it has always been very bruisable) i cannot even take 1/2 of a baby aspirin without looking like a 90-year old taking the blood thinner coumadin. this produces huge bruises all over backs of hands, and other spots on body, too.

something that works nearly always has a downside........dianne

pen wrote:

1) Migraines are caused by inflammation of the tissue surrounding the nerves in the head and upper spinal column pressing
upon the nerves themselves resulting in pain.


Thus, if the inflammation isn’t there any more, the pressure it puts on the nerves is no longer there to cause migraines.

This much I can believe but the theory of viruses...not sure I buy that. If it was viral, then, in theory, we should all respond similarly to treatment - which we obviously don't.

Here's an alternative theory on cause of inflammation: some variety of auto-immune disorder that attacks only something in the CNS. You see this in rheumatoid arthritis (if I'm recalling correctly) where the body attacks only the joints.

Pen - I thought about this as I was sitting at the Fibro/Chronic Fatique center Monday having an IV as I had read it on your facebook page. Three other people were talking about their migraines, one on disability, one working very seldom, one retired early and they were the only other people in the room. These people all have fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue. They test for 14 different viruses and I showed up with two main ones. The main culprit is Epstein Barr but there was also another one, some type of Herpes (I didn't know there were so many) that attacks nerve endings if I got the information correct. I have a little more energy now and am trying tell if I'm noticing a difference with the migraines but I'm going through some huge stresses in my life which are knocking me down. I basically had almost no immune function when I started there.

So I wouldn't discount some type of virus inflaming nerve endings. I still look at any option as being a possible solution. I don't know if there's much I haven't tried at this point and I would leave no stone unturned.

"Migraines are caused by inflammation of the tissue surrounding the nerves in the head and upper spinal column pressing
upon the nerves themselves resulting in pain.

This inflammation is caused by third party infections (in this case viral) that have located in the surrounding area.

2) By eliminating the infection(s)..."

Dear Pen,

I have never a) heard this from a neurologist b) seen this from a credible book or article c) seen this from a credible web site. If curing migraine were as easy as eliminating infection the 8-9 neurologists I have seen over the past 20 years would not I think, have wasted their time, and my time, by not going after said infection.

Yes there is inflammation when a migraine hits. That's why indomethacin works for me. It's an anti-inflammatory. But I don't think I have an infection in my body that is causing migraine- i have never ever heard that theory proposed.

Pen, they do not know what "causes" migraine. There are many well respected people with Phds doing research and they just don't know. Do you think you, without doing research, can determine the cause of migraine? Will your search for a migraine cause help you heal your migraines? Bottom line, how helpful to you is it?

I sure am finding it a big distraction.

Thank you all and do keep them coming.

Noona, your comments are very interesting.

Becky, the answer to responding to the same treatment, I think.
In theory, we havent had the treatment and we would all respond to it providing we had the pathogens identified first.
There are many, and we wont all have had the same infections. But they have the same effect on our bodies.

Epstein Barr is a biggie BTW, as is coxsackie.. and hepatitis.
It is determining which we may have succumbed to and how we may have encountered them that needs diagnosing.

I should point out, before someone gets all scientific on me, that this a view put forward by a biologist and I just wondered what you all thought. I found the theory interesting and because we don't know what causes migraine exactly, then we don't know what doesn't......It was actually started with an idea for IBS,and then evolved into FMS and now migraine.....

I wouldn't bother running it past your doctor. I cant imagine it would go down very well....


Oh and Jeselle if you find it distracting why are you reading it, and then taking time to comment?

I think it's pretty well established that migraines aren't directly caused by inflammation, but rather that inflammation is a symptom of the migraines. The inflammation is believed to be due to changes in blood vessel plasticity as a direct response of an acute neurotransmitter imbalance in the brain.

Viruses themselves do not cause inflammation. The immune system's response to the virus causes inflammation. As I've responded to the other posts you've made on this same hypothesis: it would be exceptionally easy to test both a.) whether there was any evidence of viral particles in select tissue samples from regions in the face and head, and b.) whether there was any evidence of an immune response gone haywire in people with migraine.

No one has ever produced either piece of evidence.

Not to mention that the viral hypothesis would completely occlude all evidence for medications that have been shown to help with migraines in the greater majority of the population: triptans, beta blockers, anti-seizure medications, DHE, etc. None of these types of drugs would have any impact on a viral infection.

Additionally, many people with migraines have some sort of genetic predisposition to them. I know you think that since you can't find a trace of it in your family that this is somehow untrue, but there's no reason your DNA couldn't have been the first to mutate. How would the viral hypothesis explain that?

Furthermore, most people with migraine have at least some sort of trigger, be it hormonal, light, certain food items, weather, or what have you. The vast variety of triggers and the fact that there are triggers at all would discount the viral hypothesis. Additionally, the strong prevalence of women having migraines more than men would suggest that these viruses preferentially infect women. I would find that difficult to believe. In fact, many viruses that I know of (and I work with viruses for a living) are better at what they do in men.

Finally, if migraines were related to viruses, that pretty much completely excludes the menstrual migraine population.

One more reply, sorry to go on in this thread:

"PS One further thought to ponder…scientists agree that the more complicated an answer to a problem is, the more likely it is the wrong answer"

Um, this is ridiculous. I am a scientist and know of no scientists that "agree" to this. You absolutely cannot decide whether something is the right or wrong answer based on its level of complexity. Some answers are easy and elegant, and plenty are not. This statement should never influence any person's critical thinking.

Sorry Jayme, have I repeated myself. I think the other post was regarding pathogens, but this time I asked the man just what his theory was about this.

So I posted what he said and it came down to inflammation.

So according to your post, he has the cart before the horse....
Is that it? And if we had these pathogens within, they would show up on a blood test?
Or just tissues samples...sorry out of my league here. I am no scientist.

Thanks for taking the trouble to share your expertise.
All interesting stuff.

Mind you the inflammation theory does seem to pan out with Fibro.

jwar wrote:One more reply, sorry to go on in this thread:
"PS One further thought to ponder…scientists agree that the more complicated an answer to a problem is, the more likely it is the wrong answer"
Um, this is ridiculous. I am a scientist and know of no scientists that "agree" to this. You absolutely cannot decide whether something is the right or wrong answer based on its level of complexity. Some answers are easy and elegant, and plenty are not. This statement should never influence any person's critical thinking.

Excellent Jayme thanks a lot. I shall enjoy imparting this from a "real" scientist.
I am not convinced he is a biologist, but he does have some interesting theories.


Pen

Thank you Jayme. Very well put. Migraining and trying to think critically and write cohesively are not my better skills anyway.

I do agree with you. Thanks for laying it out in English.

I think that could be a plausible cause for some of them. But the autoimmune theory is the one that makes the most sense to me. There are already so many conditions that have been recently linked to AI reaction. It would not be surprising that some or most Migs would be also. Our modern diets and mal-digestion is a big hyper stimulant to our immune systems. Complimentary medicine has found far more conditions that are autoimmune then western medicine has acknowledged.

But at the end of the day if it was a simple cause they would have found it by now. Think about how many causes there can be for stomach aches.

Thank you Brent. I appreciate your comments, especially given the work you do.
Good to have a different perspective

Pen

Oh one more

Just spotted this comment from you Jayme, sorry I missed it earlier

Additionally, many people with migraines have some sort of genetic predisposition to them. I know you think that since you can't find a trace of it in your family that this is somehow untrue, but there's no reason your DNA couldn't have been the first to mutate. How would the viral hypothesis explain that?

Just to say I do not think the genetic link is untrue. Not at all. I just cant find it for myself in my family.
I have asked...might there be two kinds/reasons for migraine? One as an independent....maybe hereditary. The other as a symptom....ie my FMS.....many many people with Fibro have migraines. But not necessarily a link. I guess something sparks it off, and for me it was hormones. But I can see the predisposition or whatever you call it must be there. Thanks again.

Also, I am told someone has commented that I am searching for the cause of migraine without research or something.
I am not a scientist, I know nothing, and am not trying to find the cause of migraine. That would be a fools errand.
This post was made out of interest, and for discussion. We have had the discussion on FB too.

I have spoken to this pathogen/inflammation fella, he is passionate about the pathogen idea.
Just wanted to see if it made any sense or not to anyone.
Apparently someone on here finds it distracting.....
If it had that effect on me, I would ignore the post.

Thanks again for all your thoughts.

I dont know as much about viruses, but bacterial infections certainly cause inflammation. I think that most of us have genetics to blame for our conditions. But, I think other things cause them to become chronic.

In my case, Lyme disease (and other co-infections)caused my migraines and tension type headaches to become daily, after 20 years of just 2-4/month. After 4 years of antibiotics and other treatment, I am down to 8-15 most months. I continue to fight systemic inflammation without steroids or anti=inflammatory drugs. It is quite the battle.
Cindy

There was a doctor over 80 years ago that had a massive amount of proof that viruses seemed to be the cause of many cancers. These viruses he discovered were translucent but developed a prismatic microscope that could detect them. Almost the entire medical community vehemently disagreed with him.

Now medical science is finding out more and more cancers are caused by a virus that triggers cellular mutations. They have to invade a cell in order to reproduce. It's makes a lot of sense that a foreign DNA inside a cell could trigger mutations.

But the doc will never be given credit for his discoveries.

All pathogens that enter the body will trigger inflammation. It's part of the immune response and some inflammation is vital for the body's functions.

So I see the body's inflammatory response to a viral invasion a very possible mig trigger. I hope there is some serious research going on to look into it. All research produces positive spin offs that could benefit other biological functions and disorders.

Pen,
He may not mean you have the virus now.
Some cancer researches are saying that a virus you had decades ago was not handled by the bodies cells correctly.
In the case of some breast cancers the virus somehow entered breast cells were the dna surrounded the virus in an effort to kill it.
However for some reason the cells mutate and the dna refuses to die in its usual two year life span.
So, the cells sit there forever and then out of the blue, the mutated cells start multiplying and bingo, you've got breast cancer.
They have managed in a few cases to isolate the original virus (or bacteria) but not all.
The same sort of thing applies to autoimmune.
At same stage, something, who knows what, makes the body decide it doesn't like it's own glands or joints and sets out to attack them with antibodies, creating inflammation (same as for a splinter for instance).
Again I think with rheuomtoid arthritis they are suspected virus/bacteria from many moons ago.
The genetic predisposition comes in where a family doesn't seem to cope with this initial cause.
In my family I am wondering if it is an element - potasium or sodium - along those lines.
Different family members then react differently but probably all from that initial problem the body couldn't deal with leading to in our family tpa axis problems.
That's my take on what they're saying anyway.
So if somewhere in your head is being sent antibodies to attack itself, perhaps prompted from something that happened years ago, yes I think migraine could be an inflammation to pain reaction.
If you get what I mean.

Brent,
Your reply hit at the same time as mine. Yours is a much better explaination.

You mentioned some of the actual disease that are triggered by viruses and/or autoimmune responses. I forgot to mention those and you added them in. It's hard to cover all the bases in one post.

Yes my poor wee brain is trouble handling dna/genetics based on two lessons in biology 30 years ago.
I think most of these theories that we see as spam are right.
The catch is one in isolation doesn't cover the whole story.
And the idea that by correcting one part of the picture will fix the problem won't work.
In fact if you pick the wrong additive etc you may in fact do a lot of harm.
So starting with genetic propensity.
About five generations ago in my family a fisherman married a farm labourer.
My wondering, is this where our genetic problem comes from?
The fisherman's thyroid was used to high concentrations of iodine and his adrenal gland, sodium.
Hers was used to low.
They had come from generations of fishers and farmers.
So firstly, is my thyroid the fishermans and my adrenal gland the farmers?
One wanting high iodine, one wanting low sodium. Or vis-versa.
So by adding the wrong mineral, the wrong way round, I can really make myself a mess.
Taking the above theory is correct, then from birth my endocrine system was already a bit confused and trying to adapt to my diet.
You could substitute your own Valencia orange grower ancestors (high Vit C) or any other combinations of different diet and nuitrients from the past and end up with a similar genetic weakness.
Add in the wonders of the twentieth century - base metals, lead mercury, petro-chemicals.
To flush these metals etc out, we rely on liver, kidny to function well.
But these organs are promoted by the endocrine system to work with the release of hormones, promoted by the right levels of Vit and minerals, which our body isn't really sure on what it needs. (Or more precisely we don't know what it needs).
So for many, high metal content/toxin leads to more trouble.
Then throw in an illness which 4 or 5 generations ago would have killed you, but with modern antibodies doesn't, and is it any wonder our poor cells have no idea what to do with themselves?
And as a whole, we have no idea what do with ourselves?

Everything is possible with a disease which is still quite a mistery to science.
The virus theory is being adopted for cancer as Brent and Marion explained very well and also for MS as far as I know.
The theory has many interesting points to develop in my opinion, like other few theories of the recent researches. I only hope that it does remain a theory; I truly hope that this time science will go deep inside what's been so far found out (I refer also to other theories) and discovers the cause of our illness.