Discreet... or insulting?....

I have a question for you guys as I am stumped, too close to the subject to be able to look at it objectively.

The thing is, I do understand how some people have a tendency to be what we call "private",
and I do recognize how they keep their personal life to themselves, not wanting to share intimate details with anybody, not even with faimly members, but .. how MUCH IS TOO MUCH, exactly?

When is it that the fine line between being discreet and becoming downright paranoid, thus patronizing,
thus insulting begins?

How would you feel if your own sister or brother was giving you a vague clues that, say, her husband/wife is not feeling well, that he/she needs to be MRI tested, but why? you were never told,
and then when you later asked (only out of sheer politeness, because these conversations make you so damn uncomfortable) (SHOULD they make you uncomfortable?) if the MRI showed anything, you've heard even more vague "well, it showed something" in such a tone and way that you didn't even wanted to ask anything else.

Is that how normal families interact? Is it normal level of privacy and discretion among families, or there is something seriously, seriously wrong.
because boy, I sure find it weird how an immediate family would disclose just such a piece of partial crap information that means obviously something big brewing here, and that's it.
in my book you either keep your mouth completely shut or you share all the pain and scare in full and receive a full support in return.

Then there is the matter of how am I being treated - am I overly sensitive, or am I right. I have a feeling that I am being patronized, not being treated as an equal.
Some of my family member were very unhappy with certain dr services and complained a lot about him. when I asked what was his name as there was possibility that I also used to seen this dr he refused to tell me.
But how did he tell me - in a light dismissive tone and a swap of hand:"ahhh, never mind, it's not important,
let's not talk about it anymore, it's not productive anyway". and that was that.

Excuse me???? if that was okay then why did I felt like a little girl?

Am I over reacting, menopausal, should I get a grip on myself? help, guys!

Risa

No, being dismissed is rude, not menopausal.

A good friend recently did something a little bit similar ( though not as insulting). She posted a vaque FB comment "feeling really sad for some people right now...hope all is okay". We have MANY mutual friends so I sent her a PM and asked her what was up, only to be told, "I really can't say...". Then why is she sharing it, dropping hints on FB?

With my friend I don't believe it's attention seeking behavior, just a case of FB TMI.

Your situation sounds like they're letting you know, and not so subtly, that they don't consider you trustworthy (which is how I felt when my friend did it, though I don't believe it was her intention). The fact that they repeatedly do it to you seems like the vicious taunting and teasing that happens in so many familial relationships only brought to the adult level.

It took me awhile (like 45 years!) but I finally learned to really limit my interactions with family members who treat me that way.

It is insulting. I don't associate with the members of my family that treat me like that. My sister was a bit more rude which is why none of her siblings speak to her anymore, but the attitude is the same. Is there a member of the family that you trust to be able to talk to about the situation and find out what the issue is? Maybe they treat everyone the same way. If not, then it might be time to back away for your own well-being. If they want to be @ssholes, then they can play the game by themselves.

And if you want some personal satisfaction, it realllly pisses those kind of people off when you stop playing! I have to say it is small of me, but I take a certain amount of pleasure in the fact that it pisses my sister off no end that I won't talk to her anymore. But she called me an addict, among other and worse insults, one too many times. I'm only human.

That is certainly one way to make a family member feel completely out of the loop. I have had it happen to me also. For me it's compounded by the fact that most of my family has completely disowned me since I left their religion 25 years ago. I find out about their health problems but usually through the grapevine and then it has either become very serious or is long over.

It can make you feel very un-important but I have found that Alli's tactic can work by flipping the scenario around back at them.

I did have a dilemma last year when I had testicular surgery and was going to be out of work for two weeks. If you tell anyone they will assume cancer but it wasn't. You don't want to freak out your friends and family. But I also did not want to explain the whole procedure because there is no one or two word description for it. You can tell someone you're having an appendectomy, gallbladder removed, tumor removed etc. That pretty much describes the whole surgery.

And as a guy you don't want them assuming that you have been "diminished" or "altered" either.

So I had a delicate tightrope to walk every time I told someone why I was going to be gone for two weeks. It would have been far easier to just say nothing and disappear. But then I would have looked like I was playing games or didn't trust them enough to confide was was happening.

It's a catch 22. And then I walked funny for almost a month afterwards and every single person had to ask why.

So I can see a rare occasion that a close friend or family member just doesn't want to talk about something. But if they are like that about everything that can make you crazy.

It's disrespectful, alienating and down right rude. That is when I refuse to play their games. Don't try to play with my head or exploit my deep care and concern I have for my friends and family.

Thank you guys. Thank you for confirming I am not a spoiled brat who demands attentions from everyone,
and who thinks the word should attend to my every whim.
The thing is, this situation is deeply rooted, in childhood really, and it's really difficult.
Both my sister and my late brother rejected me pretty early on - in my early teens, my sister worse than my brother,
and ever since our relationship is very explosive and tense. many times we aren't speaking for months, but she blames ME for being "the spoiled and unstable one". I feel exactly like each of you guys described in your comments- belittled, untrustworthy, out of the loop, unworthy, insulted, small, unwanted, dismissed.
My opinions doesn't matter, I am routinely being interrupted rudely while speaking,
often ridiculed when expressing an opinion, our discussion more often that not end in dramatic yelling match.

I am enraged and hurt beyond words that she can be so blind to her own role in all this ugly matter, but it came to the place when we are at a stalemate. Neither of us will yield to other, and she is even worse than me because while I still was open and yearned for resolving this ugliness she said she "has had it"!

She had had it? SHE has had it? Let me tell you something, all these years - all 53 years of mine she hardly ever included me in her life. The only time back in my youth when I got to meet her friends, her study buddies was when they come to our house, never out of it. Her friends, boyfriends I can count on my fingers the instances I've met them. All of it for less than an hr, maybe.
Never knew much about them besides their names.

I never ever got to go with her on vacation, not once on my life. Just us, sisters.
When she reconnected with some long-time-no-see-family members in Pl after many many years living in CAN, I suggested to go there together next year or so, she said - I don't want to go with you, you go yourself!

I was the opposite- I always, always desired her company and always, always included her with my friends, introduced her to my friends, encouraged her to participate with our activities.
Friends whom she later criticized, and mostly negatively.
Whom I later ended up defending because it felt like by criticizing them, she was criticizing ME.
because if your friend is undereducated underachiever and you think he is terrific, that means you are undereducated underachiever as well, right? otherwise you wouldn't be so taken with him, right?

She is my older sister I admired and always coveted her sympathy and her friendship, never got it.
I could live with that, but I can not live with the patronizing, belittling, rejecting.
Still all of the members of my immediate family have died, she is the only one that's left and for some reason our mother deeply instilled in us the need to keep family links intact, no matter what.
So we do, sick as they make us, she more out of duty, me for the money I guess.

I decided if she can't be a good sister emotionally, at least let her pay - she can well afford it.
But I can't even make do this one well - I hate take money from her because then I feel so obligated to grovel and repay.
I however feel she can at least pay for my daughter education and stuff.
She anyway is jealous of my daughter as she couldn't have her own kids. (unknown why), so she do it even gladly. But she does gives off an aura of impression that if this was her kid, she would do SO much better...


I am sorry this so emotional, and I have so strength to fix my English grammar. bear with me, please.

Risa

You can't pick your relatives.

Ahhh, I was angry when I was writing the above. Of course it's not money. I do love her, she is my sister, and she does help me even if it's out of her feeling of having to fulfill her duty,
but I also hate her.
It is classic sick love/hate relationship we have.

We do not agree on anything, we are so totally different.
But one thing is sure, no way I am as hurtful and rejecting to her as she is to me. never was.

Risa

We have to remove toxic people out of our lives, even if it's family. In my case it's my parents that I have not spoken with for over three years. And in those three years I have had much more peace and no regrets. To me that means it's the right thing to do. They know what has to change for them to see their son, daughter in law and granddaughter again. The ball is in their court. I am fresh out magic tricks to keep trying to ignore their dysfunctional behavior.

If their aberrant and toxic behavior is so dear and important to them to lose their son then I doubt anything will ever change them. And it's a sick indicator of who they are as humans.

I know what behaviors annoy my wife and daughter and I love them enough to work to change them. It's not that difficult considering the consequences. For a dad/husband it's not even an option. And they tell me when they see the change.

I wish it was different but I have to accept people for who they are, good or bad. If they want to change they will, it's not that tough. If they don't want to then it's a signal to us about who they are as humans.

Really.......how much work does it take just be pleasant or nice to other people? And if they're good positive people it's even easier.

‎"Why bother fighting & defending yourself with people who are not nice to you & who only add negativity to your life? Just give up, they have. Fill your life with people who support you & love you for all that you are & all that you can be." - Ellyzabeth Adler

Howdy

"Beloved strangers" Perhaps that is how I relate to my brothers and their wives. Parent-child, sister-sister, brother-brother, brother-sister ... we learn our roles and parts in the family at a very young age ... and replay those parts for decades. When I go home to my Mom's, I am ALWAYS surprised at how quickly my brother-brother role takes shape ... even when I plan and plot to avoid playing that role and just be me.

My brother is a very together person ... like me and very different from me. He and his lovely wife moved in with my parents last summer. From the capitol of Alaska to northern Delaware. HUGE change in culture, in weather, in lifestyle. Yet is took mere days for my brother to fall into the old parent-child role with my Mom ... and she with him. An 86 year old woman attempting to relate to a 56 year old grandfather as Mother-son ... no, I mean as Parent-child. With my brother's wife being friend to Mom and wife to brother, Interesting.

I keep telling my Mom that the only thing worse than bikering with my brother would be having absolutely nothing to worry about and no one to bicker with in her grief at the loss of my Dad. Bickering with my brother is a very good thing for my Mom - it is keeping her truly alive, not just warehoused. For my brother? It is more difficult to see the benefit - but he getting something out of it or he would change.

Your relationship with your sister goes WAY back. Can it change? Yes Will it change? Highly unlikely. You want HER to change and she wants YOU to change. It never works that way.

So Plan B goes into effect. She becomes a beloved stranger. Treated always with curtesy and good manners ... but never an intimate part of your life.

In so many families, it seems to me, it is the one relative ... usually the matriarch ... who keeps everyone abreast of everyone else's business - illnesses, successes, hardships. I tell my Mom something and she tells everyone else in the family. That is the way my family works. In other families it is a beloved Uncle or Aunt or Godparent ... but there is usually an elder who acts as the central clearing house.

When this elder passes away, the chain is broken and the other families in The Family re-sort out their intimate relationships. My grandmother was the conduit to my cousins and uncles and aunts. Now that she is gone ... nothing. I have no idea what my cousins are up to and very, very scant information on my uncles and aunts. It is the way of things. If it were NOT the way of things ... oh my, how very many people I would have to worry about - an absolutely oppressive amount going back generations! Thousands of people, millions of people. Oh my, but no. Life moves on.

Beloved strangers. And that is OK. Good luck.

Hi Risa

I have an older sister like that too. I thought I was alone with my monster sister. I would try and try and try. She even replaced me with a more preferable sister. (Has a friend and tells everyone it is her sister). Yet, if the stupid woman ever need a kidney, I'd be first in line to help her. It make no sense.

Friends have told me over the years that I shine brighter than her and it makes her feel little, so she tries to hold me down. Maybe it is the same for your sister. Because you are so much the bigger and better person, she resorts to immature tactics learned at childhood to try to bring you below her. It certainly doesn't help when all you want is it so connect with her, but if you alter the situation in your head to one of sympathy, instead of your sister holding the power over you, your outlook might change.

When I pretend I don't care what my sister thinks; things stay the same. But when I look at her with a bit of resignation and pity and really don't care what my sister thinks, she starts to come around.
Its weird. (doesn't always last long, but it happens).

Ultimatley, I had to learn to let go and that was the hardest part because we have so much emotions connected to our family. I'm still not where I would like to be with her cause neither of us will change drastically, but it has gotten a bit better.

I often repeat in my head; how did I learn to fly when I was raised by weasels?

Lick your wounds and move on. You've done nothing wrong. God has a sense of humour when he puts families together. You will get together at the funerals. It's sad, but true, and you can all start over again.

Angela

Once again, thank you guys, thank you for you input, sharing your own life with me.

Saying sayonara is not that simple.
Like I've said, she is the last one of my family, I don't have anybody else.
My other blood relatives, we grew so far apart I hardly know them anymore, they've become true strangers to me over the years, I feel like if I sever ties with my sister it would be like truly everyone in my family died on me.
My parents died, my brother died, my aunts, uncles cousins are mostly in Poland and we haven't been in touch for so many years- 30 I guess, that I don't know them. Those in Canada and US sadly I have terrible time communicating in English due to my deafness. so I withdraw.

We do try (me and sis) to be careful with each other, but sometimes our tempers get the better of us.
especially she gets on my nerves.
I'm sure I get on hers, too, but I am the meeker one, I try to avoid speaking up in order to avoid full blown confrontation. Unless my buttons are pushed, in which case, whoa Nelly
the rockets have launched and beware.
I especially avoid discussing any subjects that are "touchy", which she does not as much as I. So I resort to gritting me teeth to avoid a blow up when she yaks on but I am not always in the mood, so...

Friends have told me over the years that I shine brighter than her and it makes her feel little, so she tries to hold me down.

It's not the case for us, and if anything she has huge advantage over me as she is well educated not only professionally but generally, and has way more money that me, she is more "worldly" if you get me drift.

The matter is simply - she does not want me in her private life.
For her I am a family member to fulfill a familial duty, but she absolutely does not need or want to have any emotional closeness between us, never did, period.
But I must be fair, she does care for me well so I will never go hungry or without any material or physical help from her. She will do everything to ensure I am well taken care of.

Like I've said, once I understood that we never will have what I truly need I can live with that- she is just the close, private person she is, she has right to be. Not everybody is "touchy-feely extrovert" like I am, and that's fine.

But one thing that got me confused and disoriented in this whole dysfunctional scenario is I lost my sense of what's right and what not.

I just wanted to know how does NORMAL families interact. If the way I am being treated - that makes me small and unimportant - is in my head, or I do have valid grounds to believe I AM being belittled.

Risa

Risa, Punkin,

Never are you small and unimportant! Don't let her make you think that way! Take advice from me who just today was crying over my older sisters dismissive attitude of my feelings. LOL

It used to be that my sis was very protective of me. She could pick on me to her hearts content, but if anyone else did, watch out, Mama (Sister) Bear came out. In the last few years, that hasn't been so. I'm fair game and she defends anyone who makes me feel bad. She says she wants me to "see all sides". I don't want to see both sides. I want that unconditional love that my Mom used to give me.

I'm lucky, I have several close girl friends in whose eyes I can do no wrong. Why do I still crave that acceptance from my sis? Is it the younger sister/older sister dynamic?

When my son got married I was feeling very alone. Hubby has a huge family. The brides side had a lot of family. It wasn't till sis showed up that I felt comfort and not so alone...she's all I have left.

Why do I still crave that acceptance from my sis? Is it the younger sister/older sister dynamic?

I believe it's simply a sister thing. You want to have, to be close with your sister, that's all,
especially if it's your only sister, like it's the case with me.
Perhaps our image of sisterly closeness is ridiculously crooked by cheesy movies, doesn't really exist?

Thanks to you to, Char.

Risa

Risa,
your sister does not want a sisterly relation.

She doesn't know what she's missing, she's a weird person, she's hurting you and she's probably some sort of emotional blocking that prevents her to enjoy the family links.

BTW, she does not feel like being a sister and to play this role.

This makes you suffer and you have all the reasons to try to keep this family relation alive.

However there's a limit and your efforts risk to turn into a boomerang for yourself.
If in so many years she's been totally resistant to your lovely attentions and attemps to build a relation, there's probably a wall that your love and efforts cannot penetrate with normal means.

Have you ever been direct with her and asked why and if she wants a sister? I would be curious to hear her reply or - as I expect - her no-reply.

I try to be objective and find some reasons for your sister's attitude, but it's difficult, especially because I'm single child and I have always desired a sister/brother.

Family is a double-face reality. Sometimes it's happiness, sometimes it can really be annoying....

I don't really know a response to the main topic because I'm kinda out of it right now, but had to say I love your profile pic Risa I'm saving it to look at later when I need a smile. Such a happy kitty.

Risa,
your sister does not want a sisterly relation.

She doesn't know what she's missing,

BTW, she does not feel like being a sister and to play this role.

Thanks.
No she doesn't, she doesn't know or she knows, and no she does not feel like, yes.

I can live with that like I've said before,
because, again- we can not force anybody to feel what they don't want to or can't feel, right?
The only thing I ask is to be treated with respect, is all.

but had to say I love your profile pic Risa

Thanks! I love it, too!

Risa

I'm also an only child and always wanted siblings. But I realize that being blood related doesn't necessarily mean you will be close. My partner has 4 siblings. He almost never calls or corresponds with them. He just isn't interested and I guess they're not either. Too much pain from the past. I think I understand. One can only stand to hit his/her head against a brick wall for so long...

Yes, I too wonder how much I've been influenced about sibling relationships from the high cheese factor in movies.

Chris

You can choose your friends but you can't choose your family. You love them for who they are but if they are toxic... keep the interaction to a minimum for your own sanity. I look to my friends for support as don't make stupid judgements about me. I wish I could be closer to my youngest sister as she only lives about 5 miles from me, but she is even more disinterested in having a relationship with me as I am with her. If she was interested, she would have apologized for the last blowup... but I am the "ogre" in her scenario and always will be.

There aren't that many people I know who are closer to all their siblings. It took a lot of years and heartache before my other missing sister rejoined the family. We know there is hope, so we keep an open mind about the youngest ever getting her head together. In the meantime, we do have much nicer holidays and family gatherings.

Thanks guys, once more for your valuable input.

You helped me more than you think. It never occurred to me to ask her what exactly she wants from me.
Why she want to stay in touch if I am such an impossible person, then?
But I am not gonna ask her that, because I don't need it anymore.
It freed me, in a way, from wanting to straighten this mess out and covet her acceptance. For now, at least
and I hope for well. So, THANKS.

Yes, I too wonder how much I've been influenced about sibling relationships from the high cheese factor in movies.

lol I like how you described it. but these do exist in real life, too.
My friend was able to raise her two kids in such a way so they are best friends, two, a close siblings, boy and girl. Not common, but it does happen.

Risa

I am not close to my brothers - but our wars in life are mere skirmishes - quickly resolved. But close? No way.

I have noticed that brothers and sisters have a greater closeness than brothers-brothers or sisters-sisters. Just a general observation - OF COURSE there are major exceptions. But as a rule, it seems to me that brother-sister seem to stay closer as adults than same sex siblings (SSS - a new acronym for the world! LOL)