The Pope - Major Rant

I don't know if anyone else is as appalled by the latest pile of $hit that Catholic Church has come out with as I am. So first let me say that I was raised Catholic and at one time wanted to be a nun but lapsed many years ago over the rampant hypocrisy. So did you know that the Pope has issued a statment that call the ordination of wome as priests is a serious crime against the faith? The same level of "crime" as pedophilia. WTF???? A CRIME?????? To want to minister to your faith??? At the same level of child molesters?

Here is a quote from the news story: "The new rules put attempts at ordination of women among the "most serious crimes," along with paedophilia, updating a 2007 CDF decree according to which those who attempt to ordain women -- and the women concerned -- are subject to automatic excommunication."

Better lock up the children... those women who want to celebrate the most scared rites of their church are horrible, horrible sinners. They are not safe to be around. If you are female, your soul is in danger and you will be cut off from your church and your faith if you want to go against the mysogenistic views of the Vatican and be a priest.

I would have hoped that at some point the Catholic Church would start acting like the institution that began with Christ and be more inclusive of HALF of their congregation. From what I have read in the Bible there is NOTHING in there that says that women can't minister. It is just the desperate attempts of a male domintated religion to keep control of their faith firmly in the hands of the ones who have managed to bring untold harm and scandal to the church and it's congregation.

Is it any wonder that I left that church?

How is this any different than the fundamentalist churches which believe in the Bible literally? Or the Orthodox Jews who relegate women to the balconies of the temple and thank God (in their prayers) that they weren't born women?

Perhaps it is a good thing the Pope has made this statement. It's going to force the church to either change or lose half of its membership.

No difference whatsover which is why I call myself spiritual rather than religious. Most, not all, religions and churches put someone down and relegate them to second class citizens. That is not my personal idea of what God intended when he/she created the universe.

Ah, but which God? Thor, Ra, The Flying Spaghetti Monster? lol

I'm glad to see this outrage all over mainstream news!

Pathetic misogynists!

I guess it is the same attitude that had the Church not accept the "Mary Magdalene Gospel" and said that she was a prostitute. They had to degrade her status.

Martin

It's nauseating, really, it also proves my theory that "authorities" are most often than not THE most stupid, backwards, intolerant people under the sun.

The underlying issue in all this is crystal clear- it's a matter of who holds the power,
and certainly the holy men in the Catholic Church will not let the women have any of it - not by a chinny chin chin, EVER.

They are as bad as Muslims.

With greatest apologies to all religious people here as I am going to say something controversial here -
IMO, every religion is but a farce that masquerades as a bunch of rituals under which hide a fierce struggle for power, followed by greed and arforesaid power abuse,
nothing less, nothing more.


Risa

It's amazing how many spiritual writings from women never made it into the bible. In fact I find it insane how the whole selection process went in determining what books made it in and what didn't. It all came down to politics, power, control and ego. And many of the books that did make "the cut" have been bastardized through multiple translations and manipulations by whatever the power to be was at the time.

Aside from Catholics there are many other Christian religions that regard women as lesser beings. I was raised in a high control/cult that referred to them as "weaker vessels". Not even "weaker humans" but vessels. WTF!!!!!!!

Therefore I will have nothing to do with it, period. It's just that simple for me. Too much ignorance and toxicity IMHO.

But I still respect any individual's choice and avenue they choose to acknowledge a higher power or universal intelligence.

Exactly Brent. well said.

btw with regards to despicable treating of women. I was recently watching some movie, I forgot what it was but one scene was so unbeliveably offensive to me I was speechless.
I was all the more speechless as
1. it was quoted TODAY, for what reason or purpose I can not fathom
2. the author of the quote was none other but the Rudyard Kipling. a man, one would thought, intelligent and educated enough to know better. (obviously, not)
the quote was

""And a woman is only a woman, but a good Cigar is a Smoke""

http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/2738/

and a female human being, obviously, is less valuable than a well rolled Havana cigar. How terrific.



Risa

I recently watched the documentary "Banking on Heaven" and read the book "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop. Both are about the FLDS community in Colorado City, Utah.

We attack the Taliban for this type of treatment of women yet it's allowed to flourish in the U.S? AND, we pay them MILLIONS of dollars a year in welfare payments so a man can go to heaven with his 6 brides (some married at the age of 12!) and 56 children. Appalling....

A former roommate of mine has a goal of becoming a priest, although I think she realized that she'd never make mainstream priesthood in her life. There actually are a few women ordained as priests, but they are not accepted by the Catholic church as a whole. My former roommate held a special mass for all those not accepted by mainstream Catholicism as potential priests (married people, women, gays, etc.), and her uncle, who is ordained and part of the mainstream Catholic church, wanted to come, but couldn't because it would have probably cost him his job!

I should point out, however, that not all Christians are like this. Many Christian denominations do ordain women as pastors. The best speaker at my undergrad, the one they brought out when they had the Preview Day for potential new students to visit, was a woman, and she was ordained by the Four Square Church. The bigger controversy was not that a woman was ordained (which wasn't a controversy there), but that she wasn't ordained by the Assemblies of God, who sponsor my undergrad.

I also thought I'd point out that while the people who assembled the Bible may have left out writings of women (I don't know how many women were educated enough at that time to have created their own books), many scholars believe that the book of Hebrews was written by Priscilla, a leader in the early church. In fact, when they talk about her and her husband in the Bible, it's always Priscilla and Aquilla, putting her name first! That's especially unusual for that time period! There were other women who were the leaders of their churches in the New Testament, so while there are some misogynists who try to use the Bible to repress women, it's not really true.

People have used the Bible to justify all sorts of wrong behaviors. For example, for many years, they used the Bible to justify slavery. The KKK considers itself a "Christian" group, or at least they did when they were founded. I haven't read whether they still do. Hitler claimed to be acting for God and Christianity when massacring the Jews. So just because people claim something is backed up by the Bible doesn't make it so.

I was married by a female minister and her church was the last one I attended. Her ministry was very inclusive and her sermons and such were closer to what I think the message from Jesus really was. After she was murdered, the minister who took her place at the church did not resonate with me the way Carol did. I have never found another ministry that worked for me after that and gradually just came to conclude that organized religion is not for me.

There are too many rules for behavior that make no sense to me. And since most of them restrict your thoughts in some way or another, I really just can't buy into a God who gave us a brain and doesn't want you to use it. And since the status of women in sooo many religions is second class, that means that OUR brains are really not considered worthy.

I have a hard time understanding any reasoning that makes half the population second class.

Alli, I am so sorry to hear about your pastor.

Alli, unfortunately, many CHristians do focus on rules and behavior. They also are eager to make non-Christians behave like Christians, which I think is stupid because it makes no sense for someone to act like a Christian if they aren't one. And I firmly believe that when it comes to behavior, once a person does become a Christian, it is up to God to lead them to change their behavior if it is not in sync with his Word, not other people forcing them.

Christianity shouldn't be about specific behaviors and instead about having a relationship with God.

Why do we need to be a part of any organization to beleive in a higher power and do the right thing? The core concept of major religions are the same. Act out of love and that there is a higher power. The rest is open to interpretation or manipulation in my opinion.

I can see, and respect the study of it and those that need to follow that path. I do take offence to those that think everyone should follow that path and don't respect the path that I need to follow.

How can a church think to survive in this day an age if it treats half of it's educated patrons like second class citizens? Attendence is down and they scratch their heads.

Fascinating discussion. At least the Holy See has not yet proclaimed that women are "intrinsically disordered." I am in their eyes. Used to make me angry - now I do not care. Kind of proud of being intrinsically disordered to tell you the truth.

The Church wants the laity to "Pray, Pay, and Obey" doesn't work so well in the USA and the Western World - universal education has made a huge difference. And in the USA, the individual is celebrated over the community ... civil rights of the individual, Free Speech, all that good stuff. Completely at odds with society in the Middle Ages, Renaissance, Ancietn World, Asia, etc. where the community good trumps individual desire.

Sister Wendy of PBS art fame may have it correct in her relationship with the Holy See. In reply to a questions about gays or the ordination of women or some other Catholic no-no, Sister Wendy (who disagreed with Vatican pronouncements on that subject) said that well, we must always HONOR the Church for keeping the faith alive and for the Sacraments ... but we must first listen to God."

I like her thinking AND such thinking is very much in line with Roman Catholic catechism and teachings - the human conscious reigns supreme. The individual is free to love God and to follow God. Or not to do so.

Sure the Vatican and the institution of the Roman Catholic Church is an enemy to women and to gays and to individual rights. BUT still the institution must be honored by good Catholics. I think it is like the "Honor thy father and mother." The verb is not to obey, not to even to love or to like ... but to Honor thy Father and Mother.

In my life, I do not give the Vatican the power it would have if I hated it, protested against it, or fought its teachings. I choose to do the very worse thing one person can do another ... I ignore it.

Hi All,

Fascinating topic.

I have long been outraged by the Holy See's position and seeming blindness on what is happening in the Catholic Church. I should note that I am not Catholic. I think the Holy See should look back on its history in regards to its ideas of a celibate priesthood. Actually, priests in the Catholic Church were not required to be celibate until the eleventh century, when it found that the church was losing land to sons of priests. So, in essence, it was more of an economic descion than a theological one. Of course, since the beginning of Christianity, there have been those who are "called" to celibacy or monasticism. For those who are so called, that is fine. However, I think some problems going on in the church could be solved if priests were allowed to marry. It is possible that there might be fewer scandals- but I am just speculating.

The ordination of women is a very different topic. The Roman Catholic church takes the position that only men can be priests through the doctrine of "in persona Chistae." Basically, Christ was male, therefore only males are truly in "persona christae" and only men can celebrate the Eucharist and other sacraments. Well, this and the fact that women were supposedly the cause of the fall of man. Personally, I feel these are rationalizations to uphold the ideas. No, I don't that women are in the same realm as molestors, or priests who have violated the trust of their congregations and done irreparable damage.

I came accross the arguments against the ordination of women quite a few times when preparing to enter Divinity School, and even in divinity school. However, some of my strongest supporters in seminary and in preparing for seminary, were against the ordination of women. However, some priests saw me, spoke with me, we talked about the issue. I also had several people, and one well-respected priest who told me, "Ok, we may not like the idea of women's ordination, but it is clear you are called to this and therefore, I will support you and help you." This meant a great deal to me.

As I said, I did go to Divinity School. I am an Episcopalian. However, the migraines interfered. I experienced incredible discrimination because I had migraine. For example, about two months into the semester, I had to ask for an extension on a paper. In order to get it, I had to write a letter, provide documentation from the neurologist, (despite the fact that they already had a letter and knew of my condition before I even entered seminary,} and present the documentation to the commitee. A month later, I was called to meet with my advisor who told me that my migraines made me "an inconvenience to others and a detriment to the community". When I asked how I was either an inconvenience or a detriment, I was simply told, "well, you occaisionally have to ask another student to take you to the Doctor's office or hospital, which was five minutes away." When I asked how this made me a detriment, I was told "well, you are taking someone else out of the community." I reminded them that ministers are supposed to be compassionate." several weeks later, when I went to the ER for a bad migraine, the ER overdosed me on medication- giving me twice as much as was ordered, three times as fast, my respirations dropped to six a minute and I ended up in the Step down ICU for the weekend. The same professor came to visit me in the hospital the fist thing she asked "How did it feel to be that close to death?" I told her "not like anyone said it would." Later, one of my best friends at seminary, a former marine, wrote a military plan to get me to the hospital. Then we would stop by the store and lie about where we had been. Ridiculous. Anyway, the headaches got worse, as did stuff at school and I left. I still would like to do some sort of ministry, maybe hospital chaplaincy if I get well. But we shall see. Sorry part of this digressed into a rant.

I am still involved with the the church and i love it. I also know that ministers are not infallible and that more of an effort could be made by many denominations to really live the Gospel, to listen to God and to do what works and what is right. I certainly think that the Holy See might do better if they read the Bible and the Gospel as closely as they justify cannon law.

Pain free days,
sailingm

You've spoken before about the shabby treatment you recieved in Divinity School which just appalled me. You would expect that ministers and people who are teaching you to be a minister would be overflowing with compassion, but no, you were treated horribly.

I wonder if things would have been different if you were a man? Since they already didn't want you to be a minister, was this a shameful and underhanded way to discourage you?

God is so much bigger than the religions that "minister" to believers. It is sad that we women have to take a second class place if we want to be part of that faith. I think those of us who live good lives and try to live moral lives will be blessed in the end regardless of whether we belong to a Church or not.

Why do we need to be a part of any organization to beleive in a higher power and do the right thing?

For some reason, it's most likely instinctual, probably has to do with evolution - a species survived best in groups.
So we humans tend to from groups, too, gravitate towards any,
and hence feel the needs to belong to one, any one, religious included.

Risa

I agree entirely with the view that organised religion forces opinions on the masses and that faith has nothing to do with rules.

However in going our individual ways I do think we have lost something that for the masses in their small communities organised religion did hold together.

In some ways I can see the justification of Amish (know that's not spelt right) society in stepping back in time to a small community that supports and theoritically nurtures each other.

I think in Australia particulary, religion as the centre of a community has been replaced to a large degree by local sporting clubs.

So my question is, does our need for companionship outway our need for faith?

Or, as Richard suggested, are we just becoming more educated and reject the rules that religious leaders dictate, but our faith remains?

As a Protestant (I attend a Baptist church, but have backgrounds in many different denominations), I believe that the only way to get to heaven is through Jesus Christ. Notice that I did not say the church. I said Jesus Christ. If you trust him to forgive your sins, then he will do so, and God will overlook all sin and allow you into heaven. But without trusting in Jesus' death for the forgiveness of your sins, you will not get into heaven. But Christianity isn't just about the afterlife; it's about getting us through this present life too. As a Christian, I am able to rely on God to help me in the difficult times.

For example, this morning, my pain got really, really severe. But I had just had a morphine shot yesterday, so I knew that the hospital would be really hesitant to give me one today, and that got me really depressed. So depressed that I seriously began to think of suicide as the way out of the pain. It wasn't so much that I didn't want to live in general, but that I didn't want to live IN PAIN. I'm sure you've all been there many times before. I actually found myself reaching for the bottle of sleeping pills. But something, and I truly believe it was God, held me back from taking very many of them. I felt a strong urgency to be cautious in my behavior with those pills, so I took only 2 instead of the many that I was going to take. And God gave me internal peace, despite the pain. I was able to sleep some more this morning and woke up feeling a bit better.

I'm still in bad shape, but I wanted to get on the computer to while away the time while waiting for my parents to get back from the ER. But I'll post on that in a separate thread.

The main point of what I'm trying to say is that it's not the church, but God who is important. The church is valuable though in providing people to support you in making wise decisions and encourage you when you are down, as well as to pray for and with you about things on your heart and to praise when things go well.

Glad you are still here Vicki.

I am currently fascinated that humankind lives with a belief map of the world ... always has, it seems. A belief map, you ask? Long ago I defined for myself the verb "to believe" as "living as though it were true."

We all have beliefs maps we super impose on the world as we sense the world. As though life were a giant Rorschat test ... our eyes, our tongues, our ears, our fingers expereince different sensations. We put meaning on those sensations ... a blur of blue becomes a blue jay in filight. A chill can mean hunger and starvation or it can mean it is time to head to the ski slopes ... it all depends on what our minds believe the sensation to mean. We need to have a world with meaning - whether the world has meaning or not.

And so much of what we experience is mysterious, bigger than our belief map, and down right inexplicable. So all human socieites I have ever heard of develop a communal idea of a godhead - a belif map to explain, to give meaning to, that which is inexplicable or mysterious, or too big for this world.

Death is the best example. What happens? Do we "go on" as my father believed at his death? Will I ever be reunited with Steve? No one KNOWS - though all have a belief - a way to live with these questions, a way to deal with the grief and angst of death.

Even the agnostic and the atheist have belief maps they superimpose on the world - we all have to understand this world and our place within it.

Churchs are communities of people with similar belief maps. That's all. At least such is my thinking these days. (WOW! I have WAY too much spare time!)

Well said, Richard.

Me, I go by the belief that there are many paths up the mountain, but the view from the top is the same.

Martin

Alli,
this topic is very interesting and I would like to reply with a longer and more articulated post, but in this period I'm terribly busy at work and most of my day is dedicated to it.

I think that Faith has nothing to do with Church.

Faith is a free, emotional, spiritual need of all humans. It does not need authorities, institutions, laws, rules, constraints.

Church is a material, organized, tactical institution.

Faith was born with the human being as one of the many wonderful gifts that God gave us.
The Church was organized by human beings to control the gifts of God and make them become a huge business.

I have faith and my Christian background (not only religious, but more generically cultural background) push me towards the Catholic Church when I need to share my faith with an institution, but I find that true Faith could be shared with Buddhism or with Induism or with Islam at the same level if all the dogmas and the manipulated rules were put aside.

I know several Catholic priests who try to change the Church from the inside, but it's hard. Some of them have even paid for this. It's not that bad to share Faith with an open-minded priest who thinks that there would be nothing bad to have a woman on the altar or who thinks that pedophilia is a bad guilt for the Church. I wish that we had more of these illuminated priests as - after all - the spirit needs to be cured and pumpered....

I go mad like you when I read certain horrible things on the news. I am mainly a human being, female and I have been a kid. Sorry, but my attachment to the Church - if any - comes second......

Thanks for the post!

Ivy, I have been waiting for you to comment.
Hope you find the time to come back...

Pen