I Need Some Thoughtful and Honest Straight Folks

Yall are the most hones and straightforward folks I hang out with so I thought I would ask you. My friends and I were discussing homophobia the other day. Trying to figure it out.

I thought it was a two-fold phenonenom....

First is the "ick" factor concerning sex. ALL of us have an "ick" reaction to some activity or item. Sexually ... well, I have "ick's" and I am betting that most folks have "ick's". I usually see sexual "ick's" as the equivilent of my "ick" reaction to certain foods - primarily animal parts from Asian cuisine ... well, add beef tongue and my grandfathers beloved scrapple to the ick list also. ICK! But I think that many with a homophobic bent have a big ick reaction to the sexual in homoSEXUAL.

Second, for male homophobic guys in particular, is a denigration of women. Male homophobes cannot tolerate the idea of another man willingly "acting like a woman." (whatever that really means). When a male homophobe says "Those queers better not hit on me." what he is saying is "I know how I view women and treat women and I refuse to be treated like I treat women." At least that is my interpretation.

I know hompophobia is not based in religious teachings - such is just a short cut and a blessing on homophobic inclinations. Many Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, and Shinto folks are not homophobic in the least. Same with many church communities. So it has to be more than simply religious injunction - besides, people are very good at ignoring religious injunctions that do not fit with their own ideas.

So what do you think? Is my thinking sound? I am neither straight nor homophobic so I am shooting in the dark here. What do you think?

Good questions, Richard.

I think you might be correct on the "ick" factor. We do all have our own "ick" reactions to something or another, and everyone has some type of an "ick" reaction to something (some of mine are mice, snakes, eating "raw" meat [raw meaning anything less than well done]).

You're probably also correct on the male homophobics. From hearing some of them talk, they have some fear that they may be "hit" on, which would potentially degrade their masculinity in their own or others eyes.

Some may also be culture and experiences in life. The culture in which one is raised probably has some part in the equation (how their parents viewed homosexuality, whether homosexuality was openly discussed or even acknowledged in the community, etc.). I've found that as one gets older and has more experiences in life, one becomes more accepting and compassionate towards others, including lifestyles, spirituality, education, sexuality, disabilities, etc.

Is this what you were looking for, Richard? Sometimes I misunderstand things when my brain is paining.

Hope you're doing well.

Hi Richard,

I think it's such a shame in today's world that so many people judge other people regardless of who they are, what their religion is or isn't, where they come from, what they have or don't have, what their sexuality is, etc. But, I have a feeling that those things will never change.

IMO it's all a matter of ignorance. Nothing more, nothing less. Those types of people do not care to learn about people who are different from them. It's either their way, or no way. I honestly do not choose to associate with ignorance. No one is better than anyone else. All I can say is that people who do judge and do not want to get to know people who are different from them, or who think differently than they think are people who are missing out on so much in life. They miss out on the best of friendships, they miss out on the best part of living in the world today.

I do agree with what you said about what and how homophobe men think - such a shame. It does show me that they are just very insecure with themselves, so sad.

Yes, there are lots of "icks" - I have them. But when it comes to the judgment of others, that's what I have a hard time with.

Sorry - I didn't mean to start ranting. This is a very touchy and dear subject to me because my sister whom I love dearly is a lesbian and I know what she has been through and how she has been judged by others and it kills me. She is the most caring, compassionate, strong-willed, funniest (reminds me of Ellen with her humor) and I could go on and on, person I know.

Hugs!

ome may also be culture and experiences in life. The culture in which one is raised probably has some part in the equation (how their parents viewed homosexuality, whether homosexuality was openly discussed or even acknowledged in the community, etc.).

I completely agree with Becky on this one. "You have to be carefully taught" I was raised in a very open minded enivornment and don't give sexuality and race a second thought. Hubby was not and was very homophobic when we met. Since then he has been exposed to new ideas. Since being with me his attitudes has changed 100 %.

I was very proud when a man he works with was having a domestic issue and finally chose my hubby to come out to and help him. He said he thought hubby would be the most understanding. And he was right, hubby was. But, 28 years ago hubby would have turned his back on him.

I think environment factors more into homophobia that the ick factor.

Hmmmmm...as usual, great topic to think about sir!

I've been through many a debate on many a homosexual topic. My own upbringing had me attend a very exclusive, private christian school. Growing up gay in this environment was tough, to say the least.

I had not yet actually viewed male homophobia with a misogynistic slant. It's a great theory, and I'm sure a very valid one in many cases.

I also totally agree about the "ick" factor. I think many people close their mind to things that make them feel "icky".

I do feel that religion is greatly to blame for a lot of the homophobia we encounter to this day.

Culture also plays a huge role. I live in a huge metro with one of the largest gay communities in North America. Gay bashings have always been prevailant here, but lately there has been a surge and each has included gay males and abusers from one particular ethnicity/ culture.

Our upbringing can certainly be very responsible, but not entirely. I grew up in an environment that was very closed to all other religions, ideations, ethnicities, cultures etc, yet I am one of the least judgemental people I know, as is my cousin who had an identical upbringing to me.

Taken from:

Austin's Atheism Blog
By Austin Cline, About.com Guide to Atheism

Monday May 30, 2005
Is there a connection between homophobia and misogyny? There are good reasons to think so: each position tends to be based upon common assumptions about the superiority of the masculine role and the inferiority of the passive, feminine role in intimate relationships.
DED Space argues:

[Men who freak out over men being together in a romantic/sexual relationship freak out because for them, it all comes down to their own fear of being someone's butt-boy. Which would be really humiliating and would turn a man into something truly loathsome--a woman. ]

[The fear of being made "a woman" by another man will send an otherwise shallow and apathetic man into a letter-writing, Focus on the Family-contributing, Republican-voting lunatic. Show me a man who hates gay males and I'll show you a man who despises women. ]

I wouldn't agree with the last statement. I would instead say "Show me a man who hates gay males and I'll show you a man who despise the role they would assign women." That's probably what DED means, but I think this is more clear because these roles are artificial creations that the men in question assume to be immutable and, usually, handed down by God.

Alas comments on the above:

[I’ve seen this hyper-phobia and misogynist attitude displayed by homophobic men. They despise Gay men out of the fear of themselves becoming “the woman” or “the feminine” in a sexual relationship or social setting, and they long for their women to be submissive so they can reaffirm their traditional masculinity and manhood. If they become “the woman” or “the feminine” in a relationship or social setting, they are no longer a man and they loose their “power.” ]

Traditional masculinity is valued as powerful and dominant, while traditional femininity is associated with weakness and submission. Traditional femininity solely exists to reaffirm the traditional masculinity’s power and dominance. Homophobic men who treasure traditional masculinity (and even hyper-masculinity) view the relationship between Gay men to be unnatural because there is no woman or feminine being to reaffirm the masculinity and manhood–the so called “power” aspect is missing.

Some people really aren't secure unless there are clearly defined gender roles in a relationship. Gay couples, male and female, have often been asked "who gets to be the man and who gets to be the woman" in their relationships. The assumption behind this is clearly the idea that such an intimate relationship requires that one person take on a "man" role and another take on a "woman" role, with both roles being very distinct.

Relationships where this doesn’t occur are denigrated and devalued. When a lesbian acts more "male" or a gay man acts more "female," they are treated as if they were less human. The exact same is true of straight men and women who fail to adopt the correct gender characteristics. The prejudices against non-submissive women and gay men are, then, closely related.

Great topic and one I have debated with more than a few people. I just don't get anti-gay sentiment. I have some very close friends that are homophobic. They are very devout Christians and they truly believe that homosexuality is; 1, a choice; 2, a perversion against God; 3, that if you allow homosexuality to be accepted, you are going to pervert their children and grandchilden; and lastly, if you allow gay marraige... is the next step going to be marry your dog? When Prop 8 was up for a vote, we had many, many discussions but I could never get them to be reasonable. I got to the point where I felt like the lone voice of reason in a sea of irrationality.

It was frustrating to say the least. I was and am appalled that people who are otherwise wonderful people can have such a blind spot when it comes to homosexuality. One of my friends thinks that it is ok to be gay, but don't act upon the sexual aspect. WHAT??? Deny one our primary urges as a human being because you find it wrong? They are not misogynistic as they treat their wives and daughters well and treat me well. They just are brainwashed by their religion.

They seem to forget that God made us ALL and that includes homosexuals. If it was so wrong why did God put it in our genetic code?

The primary problem as I see it is that some people can't separate their sexual feelings from their intellect. They see anyone who doesn't fit their picture of how people are supposed to act as threatening. I also don't get why so many people go straight from homosexuality to pedophilia. This is one of the primary reasons I get from them for why they are opposed to gay rights. They are protecting their children from perverts. What about the hetero perverts? Are they more acceptable because it is hetero? It baffles me.

There are just as many flamboyant and overtly sexual heteros as homosexuals, just look at Spring Break. That is televised on MTV every year and it gets gross. I wouldn't let my kids watch it as I found the whole thing exploitive and degrading to both men and women. But that is more acceptable than the more flamboyant parts of a gay pride parade. I think that if you are going to get upset about people hanging out in bathing suits or drag at a parade then get upset about the wet tee shirt contests and bikini contests that go on at Spring Break not to mention the prodigidous amounts of alcohol that are consumed. Have you been to a club lately? Have you seen how people dance? Do you really think you daughter is safe around a bunch of drunk college boys who have lost their ability to think rationally? I guess so.. but man, throw in the gay card and OMG..... the world is going straight to hell.

The other thing that beffles me are the people who think that if they are around a gay person, they are going to be hit on. Are you really THAT irresistable to everyone that just being in your presence is going to make an otherwise normal person throw caution to the wind and make a pass? Wow.... what an ego.

My kids seem to have grown up with being able to accept people for who they are rather than by their labels. They have had gay friends since middle school. My daughter's and son's groups of friends consisted of the drama people, the artists, the musicians, the gay people, and the ones who pierced their bodies, got tattoos, the ones who dyed their hair strange colors, the goths... the outsiders. They taught ME to look beyond the outer appearance and the labels and see these kids as the sweet, intelligent people they are.

I think really that it is the people who are unable to accept their own sexuality that have the most trouble with the whole gay issue. I've noticed that those who protest the loudest have some kernel of what they are protesting lodged firmly in the own behavior. What I find saddest is those who use religion as a reason to condemn someone. Religion is a social contruct that has had a civilizing effect on humanity. The sad part it when the spiritual aspects get perverted by our human failings and then is passed on as God's truth. God is so much bigger than we are and so beyond our ability to understand all his/her works. Let God be the judge and we people here and now, need to learn let go of those things that separate us and work on the things that bring us together.

So whether it is mysogeny, religion, or just plain stupidity... it's not going away soon. My fervent hope it that as we raise our children better, this type of thinking will just fade away.

Gosh Alli....I think I love you!

Absolutely no idea.

I started pondering racism when I was about 8. Didn't know much about sex at that age.

There was an aboriginal boy in our class who was behind in everything except art. But at drawing, this kid had a gift.
He sat next to me in class (I was a bright kid and the theory was that something would rub off I guess) and the teacher did nothing for him - nothing. So he would draw for me. I would ask him to draw something and by the end of the day there would literally be a masterpiece.

I have thought of him so often over the years. If he was born now, has society changed enough, would he now be recognised for what he was - totally gifted? Did anyone over the years give him some encouragement? Or did he end up like so many of his generation in a bottle. If he did the world truly lost a remarkable talent.

Even at 8, I knew that if he had been white things would have been totally different for him.

Looking at it in the big picture, why throughout history does one crowd of people stand on one side of a line trying their hardest to kill people on the other side?

I just don't know. Just don't get it.

.

I agree that there is the "ick" factor - which I have always had a problem with. When we meet someone heterosexual we don't imediately try to imagine them having sex!

I don't know if I agree with the not wanting to be viewed as a woman because women are lesser beings (my own words). If that were true why do lesbians bother some men so much? Right or wrong I think people (men) view it as a lack of self control and don't want to "fall" there themselves.

I have often had another argument in the area I work/live. There is a strong assumption that homosexuals have NO self control and that they are pedophiles, too. I admit that I am not knowledgable about homosexuality but I am POSITIVE homosexuals are not pedophiles and pedophiles are not homsexuals no matter what sex of victim they prefer. But I can't convince some people of that.

you asked, so that is just my opinion/experience.

I watched the DVD you mentioned, Richard (8 The Mormon Proposition). It really ticked me off about the Mormons. They had no right to do what they did and to keep their tax status. I tried to see if I recognized you on the steps of City Hall. No luck.

Recently I read something about why communism failed in Russia.

A strong argument was that there wasn't a competing party to blame.

In a democracy we can blame the outgoing party, the incoming party, the party that spent too much, too little...

We need to blame someone.

In the 50's we blamed the reds, in the 60's here in OZ it was the Italians, the 70's the Vietnamese, the 80's was someone else... I can't keep up.

We blame the blacks, the yellows, the religious, the non-religious, corporations, greenies.

I think though the word "blame" could be replaced with the word "hate" in a lot of cases.

It's the fact that as humans we seem predisposed with a need to blame or hate, so any minority, or other group that doesn't conform to our own ideas or can be perceived in some way as a the cause of our own problems, whether financial or sexual qualifies as a target.

So no I don't think "ick" is a major part of the problem, some of it perhaps, but the need to blame/hate is much more likely.

I think everyone here has made some great points. One thing that immediately came to my mind that hasn't been emphasized much here is that the people I know who are the most homophobic are people who also know the fewest gay people. I suspect this is often true of hatred towards any group of people. Once you get to know several from a group of people, whether it's a particular race, sexual orientation, or even hair color, it's much harder to view them negatively.

I grew up in a conservative Christian home and went to conservation Christian schools, and I had a few teachers who were very blatantly gayist (not to mention homophobic). My 7th grade science teacher actually passed around a magazine with pictures from a gay pride parade or something like that and had us look at the people in it to see that they don't even look like "normal" people! Even then, when the pressure is particularly intense to go along with the crowd (and for me especially, to please the teacher), I couldn't find any unnatural features to suggest when he asked about it. My high school American lit teacher would always use gay people as the example of the most awful group she could think of. When we studied The Crucible, a play about the Salem Witch Trials, she compared the stigma about being a witch to hearing that a group of pastors' children had had a gay orgy in the woods. And my senior Bible teacher, to fulfill the state requirement that we study AIDS each year of high school (which they decided to study in BIBLE CLASS???), showed us a video about the "evil gays" and advice such as, "When defecating on each other, be sure to close your mouth, so you don't get any of the other person's excrement in it." EXCUSE ME?!? We were talking about this for weeks, and most of us saw through the hype to question the motives of our teacher.

So I grew up surrounded by this environment. I don't think I would say that I was homophobic then, just that I couldn't understand how someone would ever want to be gay. (As if you could just WANT to be gay or straight!) But as soon as I started making friends who were gay, and having life-long friends (including my very oldest friend) come out of the closet, I became a lot more compassionate about the issue and eventually came to support gay causes (which would horrify a lot of people in my church if they knew).

I also thought I'd point out that there is a difference in attitudes towards gay men and lesbians. An awful lot of men I've talked to are very fascinated by lesbians. An ex-boyfriend of mine was one of them, and he told me how a co-worker of his was really excited when his wife had sex with the neighbor lady, and the two husbands got to watch! My last roommate said too that her female friends were often paid by men at clubs to make out with each other because the men got turned on by seeing women together. Why that is the case, I have no idea. And whether this interest in lesbians is limited to those who already don't mind gay men is something that I don't know either.

One other thing that just came to mind is that historically (meaning millenia ago), it was important to populate the earth, so people would look down on gays because they weren't going to reproduce. This probably was passed down from generation to generation, and the attitude became entrenched, even long after reproduction became important.