Question for You - Are there class distinctions in your country?

In another thread, the topic of "class distinctions" arose. One of the USA's favorite musicals is "My Fair Lady" - based on the class distinctions in the UK as perceived through language and accent.

I am curious ... are class distinctions still alive and well in the UK? Can "Henry Higgins" still determine a person's "class" in society by theri accent?

Here in the USA, we proudly LIE to ourselves that there are no class distinctions. That is utter nonsense, in my mind. We have the educated, wealthy class ... a large middle class with many levels (lower, middle, upper), and then the lower classes. Watch "Jerry Springer" for great examples of the lower classes in the USA. Or visit any of our wonderful "projects." Real disasters. And real sad.

In the USA, one can change classes ... drrugs and alcohol drag one down ... education and smart financing bring one up.

At least that is the way I see things. I doubt if my parents ever had a conversation with a lower class drug using, welfare person. I have ... in my world we move among the economic and education classes with ease ... we rank on much more superficial characteristics than mere education, character, wealth, and social graces. Oh my, but being gay does indeed expose one to all strata of society. For better and worse.

But as I begin dating again, it seems to me that like is best with like. College education with college education ... maybe I mean that. Not certain. But coming from similar backgrounds does indeed make relationships run smoother courses. Or so it seems to me.

Are there class distinctions in your country? Am I way off base in my thoughts on USA society?

Do we still have class distinctions. Yes I guess we do, but not like "enry iggins."
We have a show called Jeremy Vine which is a Springer clone.

When I was growing up, as far as my father was concerned we were working class because he worked.
He was a baker and he worked for himself later on, but he worked. As far as he was concerned working or non working.
My mother was funny. She was a miners daughter, they knew true poverty, not the kind we have in this country these days where one cant afford a big screen TV. This was true poverty, no shoes, no food. She grew up in the depression...called the "slump" here.
So she asopirred to be better. When she married my dad in the war, I think she thought she had arrived....
Well I guess she had in some ways, but it was still a lot of work.....still working class??

Well there is the dichotomy. When I was 16 I worked in Market Research. That was when I found at my family was A/B because by that time my dad had his own bakers shop......We still believed we were working class, but had somehow become lower
middle.

To explain further....without prejudice, before anyone thinks they should jump on me....
This is a description for your edification Richard. Not an opinion, nor a criticism.
This is after all a discussion.

Now we do still have upper classes....those born to money, or nobility.
And we have pseudo upper classes...new money....not much class, but lots of money.
There are not the same working classes as in my youth, as no one wants to do blue collar jobs, everyone wants to earn a lot whilst keeping their hands clean.
We have what is uncomfortably called an "under class". These are people who would not sit well with my working class family.
They live in rented council housing and do not work.

Do we still judge people by their speech. No I don't think we do. Regional accents are now all over the TV and I think our language is richer for it I love accents and dialects., As a family historian I feel they should be preserved.

I would just say that unless we adopt communism ,which is unlikely, although I could say more on that...
We will always have a class system, but probably call it something else.
Man was not created equal in the Biblical sense there will always be leaders and followers, and this is where our "ruling classes" got their hold. Keep the peasant ignorant.....

BTW I love History, and have no problem discussing the bad with the good.

I should probably leave it there Richard.
Does that go any way to answering your question.

I'm not from the UK but agree that there are definite class distinctions in the US. I could have stated exactly what you stated Richard. I think most people want to associate with people who are in the same "class" distinction. I have always been able to mingle with anybody and find just about everyone interesting but when it comes right down it it I prefer an educated person.

I was privileged to have come from a background of wealth (my mom's side) and "working class" (my dad's side--although he was self-educated) and can fit in quite nicely anywhere. I do prefer education though. A person doesn't have to have a PhD (or any degree) but educated (something that is available to anyone in the US). I guess I have a hard time with people that are dumb as rocks. For me money doesn't fit in (although education often = money). I would rather hang out with an educated homeless person (as long as he wasn't on drugs) than a rich stupid bimbo any day. I like a person with "class", which doesn't have to mean money.

I think our country very much distinguishes class by money and even this can become complicated. A person with new money that they earned every penny of can still be put down for coming from a poor background or they can be put down for NOT earning their money but inheriting it.

I think most people want to mingle with people that are in the same "class" as they are (however they want to define class). For me it is education. For some it could be money. For some it could be drinking buddies. It is only human nature. I don't think most people want to associate with the "same" because of prejudice. It is just what they are comfortable with and I see nothing wrong with that. Everyone should be tolerant of everyone though (even if they are the druggy on the street).

There is a huge difference between hubby and I and it has less to do with money than education. Though many times it goes hand-in-hand.

Hubby was very poor and education was not valued. Both his mother and father only had 7th grade educations. Hubby dropped out of HS.

My folks were raised in iron ore mining town and neither family had much money, but the school system and my both sets of grandparents stressed education. They both went on to college and my dad ended up being a commercial airline pilot.

It was expected that my sister and I would go on to college, as I expected my son too.

It is most noticeable in hubby in his grammar. He uses double negatives constantly. And instead "I don't have any" he "don't got none". Or his favorite "I'm gonna get me some ice cream" instead of "I'm going to get some ice cream". I tease him about having such a big ego that he has to identify himself twice in a sentence.

It drives me insane and it has improved over the years with constant correction from me, but then I feel like his mother instead of his wife.

When our eldest was in Jr. High we decided that hubby was not to comment on grades. Son had brought home some C's on his report card. That was completely unacceptable to me. Hubby made the comment "My Mom would've thrilled if I brought home C's". And yes, he said it in front of our son. Boy did hubby get yanked into the other room fast!!!!

But, we've worked well for 27 years...in our case opposites do attract.

Australia seems to be divided by class by post codes. I don't live in a tony post code, I didn't want to spend most of my income on the mortgage. I live in a suburb that most people look down on. It is full of immigrants, just like me. But the worst post codes in Sydney are not as bad as the worst sections of large US cities.

Yes Richard,
Unfortunately my country is split in two. The wealthy North and the poor South.
People from the North feel superior and they are often kind of racist against the Southerners.

The funny thing is that since the 50's millions of people from the South have been migrating to the North and after a while they begin to think and behave like Northern folks. They become hyper-critical towards the South and tend to keep a certain distance from their origins.

I am terribly angry for this situation as in the South there are incredibly talented people who have no chances but migrating to the North where they have to work twice harder to show their capabilities.

And - yes - accent is definitly a way to recognize people from the South and hence discriminate them in some cases.

How does race and ethic background figure in the equation? Here in California, we are a mixed bag of people and probably, education and money determines your status.

These discussions make me crazy- they are so infinitely complex and we reveal so much by our responses. I think class is determined by behavior and education (formal or otherwise) - but not money. Both my husband and I have better educations than his parents do- but they both (they are divorced) have a lot more money than we do. They can afford homes in wealthy neighborhoods and while we live well compared to many, we live poorly compared to many. (We'd do better if I could work again, but who knows if that will happen.) Yet I've never felt inferior to anyone- perhaps because of my education- Yet my husband's parents - particularly his mother - though not stupid by any means - seem ignorant and prejudiced. (The things that come out of her mouth. . . ) Despite her home(s) she seems to be of a far lower class than many who don't have nearly the resources she has.

Growing up the daughter of immigrant parents I had little compared to many. But I was always one of the brightest in my class at school. Of course it was always public school. Again, how do we define social class?

While working as a nurse in the community (a profession I chose despite its lack of prestige), I've dealt with people from many different socioeconomic backgrounds. I've been a guest in their homes. And I've found that it is possible and perhaps necessary to delve deeper than superficial differences. I have found brilliance and beauty in the most unlikely places. I've also worked internationally (in Jamaica - though not the tourist areas that most see) and met people who had nothing- literally nothing- living twelve to a one room shack. And was put to shame by the generosity and caring I experienced. Now that's class.

Things only change when we as a people change. Gandhi chose to live as a poor person- to identify, to understand. He refused to make the distinctions that we seem to find so inevitable.

Anna, I just saw your post, so I am adding my comment to you after what I wrote below - I absolutely agree with you. Your family has class. Real class. I am so glad you wrote that - this is exactly what I was trying to say below in quite a different context.
I will leave the rest of my post, as it was, it is long so you do not need to read it, unless you wish to.

This is in response to the original thread:

Are you serious? Of course there is a class system, at least here in UK. As strong as ever. In fact stronger then ever. It is interesting subject very much alive but swept under the carpet - so no one talks about it any more and we pretend we are all equall.
However before you draw the big guns much of what is below is written very much as "tongue in cheek" excercise - do you have this expression? I do not wish to start any class war here so read it with light mind.

So, let's start: unlike in USA where it is all simply a matter of hard cash, in UK the class issue is less to do with money then, yes, with class.
You either got class or you don't - you certainly cannot but it for cash. If you have to buy it - it means that you never had had it so it does not count. Logic, you see.
And it is still very much true, where it matters - at the top of the tree.

It is also much more complicated, much more subtle then in the past so you have to be "in it" to recogise what is going on. You need to know "the language", "the signs" andl symbols to know who is who. Whom you are mixing with - really.
They all speak in codes, they recognise each other within minutes, they watch and they smile.
But the seceret is is that unless you are not "in it" you will never know what is going on. So, people don't.

Few years ago my Uncle was the Polish Amabassador here in London, and since he was still unsure of his English ways, he asked me to help, to be of assiastnce to him and my aunt, his wife, to introduce them to some of the British ways etc.
As a result I've spent much time with them over the proceeding 4 years being present during their offical dinners, and other functions both in the Embassy and in their private Ambassadorial Residence. In the process "one met" an incredible variety of people "who matter" in UK high society; I watched and observed I amused myself by asking lots of questions (such functions can be terribly boring) I never felt uncomfortable, or intimidated - there is not reason to be - everyone is terribly, terribly nice and well practiced in the art of converstion.

It soon became obvious to me, that the higher in the English class structure people were the most realxed and nice they were: modest, open, often funny and direct.
The money came into it, of course, but it was not the main factor in terms of who is acceptable at that highets level, and it would be in the worst possible form to talk abou any such vulgarity.EVER.

One step down from that top level were also aristocracy, people who were basically agricultural money makers with their huge estates run like industry who were not as relaxed as they should be (as seen by others aristos) which is not a good thing.
Also to this top group belong those other genuine aristocratas who are somewhat struggling, their large palaces in dire need of maitennce, most glory in the past.

This are still the top, top people here, they will have their sons in Eton and Harrow, then Oxbridge (Oxford of Cambridge in case you wonder) these will be the next generation of the new movers and shakers of the British society who are running the judiciary and courts, banking, academiae etc. etc
.
They are all charming, delighful company, they talks easily, you can ask them any question, but in order to ask you have to be able to have an acess to them, to find them. And you don't. They only associate with each other, they only mix with each other. They mostly marry each other. It is a totally closed club.

Talking about the clubs they all belong to some - I mean the real ones: Pall Mall and all that area, St James's. This is where it is at. (The women in case you wonder are still not welcome sight in many clubs. Separate lounges, Squash bar in Oxford and Cambridge Club is OK, Restaurant too and you are ushered quietly to meet your fiancee. Otherwise you are not welcome and BTW you have not missed much, the food in such clubs is absolutely ghastly, terrible!).

This above is just a little illustration of the top class very much alive and still thriving. Even if they try to drop an accent, the younger ones it means nothing.

The above class of people will all look down their noses at the new mega/mega rich, even those much wealthier then they are even if theydo buisness with them, or play with them (specially with the young and pretty ones) but even the poorest of aristo will always look down their noses (in private) at the richest of the rich, or the greatest of the Hollywod film stars of the day.This is an absolute rule and do not make mistake thinking otherwise.

Below that top class come endless middle classes.
This is also where the mega rich, nouveau riche belong in UK.Here in UK no matter how wealthy you are, you are still Middle Class in social sense (of the top people) since remember you cannot buy your way into class.

There are manyr expaning new middle classes: Upper- Upper, next Upper, then all the others: Middle, Lower Middle, then Lower- Lower Middle. I am serious this is how it goes and you can argue about what is what, amongst each other - I do not care who is what or where who belongs this is how they are graded but various social gurus etc.

All middle class, can be recoginsed easily, basically by being miserable. The reason? They always want to be on that next step of the ladder. You know the one this which is just above you one better car that you have, one better street that you can afford, etc always one step below what they could possibly reach. "Keeping up with Jones's" all suburbia, comes under this one.

Let me also tell you that persoanlly I have found in all classes above and below people with real class - so there are no argument about this point.

And finally comes the fastest dissapering working class. (Blue collar in USA).

Working class? Where is it? You might still be able find some people who will admit that they come from this hard working minority - mostly in the north - but nowadays they often call themselves lower middle class for some reason, even if the working class has so much more dignity to it.
In fact this is where some what is best, and true dignity can be still found, in this society.

So this is basically our class system here.

Now to more of those personal expriences of class encounters:
I am still very much in touch with some of my close friends in London, who are the members of some of the absolute top "right clubs" types of people (where we met, when I lived in the area) and their lives are still ruled by the same thousands of unspoken rules, and they are suchl slaves to their way of life, despite all the money and influence that they have it impriosons themselves in their way of living.
It is such a hard life.
Truly, I am not joking: so much to worry about, constant worry about getting the rights school places for their children, and for themselves always having to socialise with the same people -they only mix with each other, restaurants, lunches, the clubs, the right bags, right shoes, jewellery, what to leave to which granchild in their wills, worrying they they will ruing their lives with so much money (as daughter allready did).

I had a such friend call me few days ago asking if they can come over with her husband to get away from the madness of London life, they need to run away from their heavenly multi million mansion with gardens close to Wimbledon courts, their clubs, their difficult families, boring friends, they long for little sanity here, in my little home - they need me to cheer them up she tols me. I have no energy now.

I will have them but not now I want to be there for my friend - they are nice people - but I have moved house recently so I want to have my own family here, as a priority. I have different priorities - full stop.

Yes, there is a class system in UK, very much so and it is definitely alive and kicking, very structured and well organised, and I am glad that as an outsider I do not have to play. It is not so visible, but it is there all the same. It does not bother me, it amuses me when people treat it too seriously - hence jokey tone.

There was once a discussion on class, at one of my parties (when I was still giving them) and this thread reminded me of it. It was as always unusal mix of people who did not know each other and someone began to wonder, how is that in my home there are always peoplee from such different backgrounds, and they despite of this people are having such a great time. This is BTW not as common in the UK, as it would be maybe in USA . People generaly socialise with their "own kind" specially as they get older.

But then at that party we looked around: there were poeple from two generation (between 20-50);
my dear friend a genuine Baroness (with her own castle) was talking to a couple a real working class friends, an artist Scotsman friend of mine, a rebel, was talking to a very conventional Irish GP who was then my (very conventional) boyfriend, there were two buisness couple, then also a Jewish friend, an Arab diplomat (boyfriend of my gay friend), few of my (then) snobby neigbours, some young friends from London ghetto districts of Peckham, family form Goa, and many more whom I do not recall but it was such a strange mixture, that someone remarked how it was possible that we all get on so well - this was a prefectly normal gathering only with food, dancing, little Polish vodka, some wine from guests was all that was going.
The room was buzzing with conversation and ineterst. I had many such parties at that time, different mixture of people each time - (it was after my divorce, it was great time).

All these classes mixing togtether, someone noticed -then another person said: and what class is our hostess? Before I had a chance to say anything, someone said: Like the Queen herself, she is quite classless. WE all laughed at that. But it is true, a foreigner can be as classless, as they choose.
I like being classless in UK. I like being from a definite class in my own country, though.

Here being classless gives me an opening to any class I chose to mix with.
And this is true to this day. I am at home anywhere, and I am make freinds easily in my new surroundings again. I have never, ever in my life experinced any class, or other prejudice in UK either.

But do not think it is easy to remain classless here- you need to be strong to do that since people will always try to draw you in on to "their side", their party, their club, whatever. I have always lived here in very prosperous, affluent areas (what you would call in USA Republican ground I think) I dress with care and behave and talk in certain way, so people presume certain things about me.

This is how I know, that even today there is a strong class system. People always want to "adopt" me to their causes, or class, or way of being.
I will refuse to do that, I much prefer to remain,as always, an independent spirit.
Senna

Sure, class is still alive and kicking here as it is in lots of other european countries but it's not as in your face as all that. To me, if someone's thoughtful, caring, tolerant (without being a paragon), doesn't talk without listening, then they've got class.

Liz

LizzieB wrote:Sure, class is still alive and kicking here as it is in lots of other european countries but it's not as in your face as all that. To me, if someone's thoughtful, caring, tolerant (without being a paragon), doesn't talk without listening, then they've got class.Liz

Nice one Liz. Speak as you find. I never prejudge or certainly hope I dont..,.

P

Yup, Class distinction is alive and well in the UK. The traditional hierarchical view of class is probably true but, don't believe the propoganda that they all get on well with each other these days 'cos that ain't the way it is. My experience is generally that one class still distrusts and takes the mickey out of another pretty much as they have always done unless there's a profit that can be made from the arrangement. For instance, "Working men" still distrust Conservative politicians because "they're all ex-public schoolboys". Also most of us know our place whatever our class!

People are also stereotyped based on accents. They might not be exactly as they were as portrayed by professor 'iggins but they're still there. Many regional accents are more acceptable than they were but some are still assumed to have certain negative connotations. It also depends where you live. There is also a general street accent which is being adopted by the growing underclass to go with their street culture and language.

Sadly there are a large number of people in the UK who, for one reason or another, feel excluded from mainstream society. Sometimes intentionally but more often not. It is they who form the new underclass which is now in at least its second generation. I'm not talking about a specific criminal class although law breaking is common. You won't find these people at parties where the wine flows or at barbecues. They just would not be asked, would have no idea how to fit in and would be scared stiff. The class gap between them and the rest of the population is so great that although they're seen every day they're generally not noticed, which is why they're where they are.

The other thing is, of course, that "having class" has nothing to do with what social class you're from.

Johnfd,

I'm going to disagree with you on a point. Having class does have to do with class. At least here in the States. Here there's a difference, money does mean something and there are different stations within it. However there's a difference between having class and having none in each station. You can be poor and still be a higher station by choosing to behave in a higher class way.

Hi HeelerLady,

You're right. Some people do act in a higher class way. These people are often described as being very classy. It can also be very funny if they get it wrong. There was a tv sit-com here called Keeping up Appearances which covered the exploits of Hyacinth Bucket, pronounced Bouquet!

That sort of classy-ness wasn't what I meant, though. I think when I said "having class has nothing to do with what social class you're from" I meant the same thing as you when you say "there's a difference between having class and having none in each station".

Johnfd wrote:Yup, Class distinction is alive and well in the UK. The traditional hierarchical view of class is probably true but, don't believe the propoganda that they all get on well with each other these days 'cos that ain't the way it is. My experience is generally that one class still distrusts and takes the mickey out of another pretty much as they have always done unless there's a profit that can be made from the arrangement. For instance, "Working men" still distrust Conservative politicians because "they're all ex-public schoolboys". Also most of us know our place whatever our class!

People are also stereotyped based on accents. They might not be exactly as they were as portrayed by professor 'iggins but they're still there. Many regional accents are more acceptable than they were but some are still assumed to have certain negative connotations. It also depends where you live. There is also a general street accent which is being adopted by the growing underclass to go with their street culture and language.

Sadly there are a large number of people in the UK who, for one reason or another, feel excluded from mainstream society. Sometimes intentionally but more often not. It is they who form the new underclass which is now in at least its second generation. I'm not talking about a specific criminal class although law breaking is common. You won't find these people at parties where the wine flows or at barbecues. They just would not be asked, would have no idea how to fit in and would be scared stiff. The class gap between them and the rest of the population is so great that although they're seen every day they're generally not noticed, which is why they're where they are.

The other thing is, of course, that "having class" has nothing to do with what social class you're from.

hi john yeah you have it spot on,

our town has changed such alot in the last 10 years we have alot of social housing being built and families from all over have been moved into the town i live in,some of them they have brought with them, a wave of anti social behaviour, we have had damage to our property, been told to f**k off when out and about, my kids have been attacked in the local park, these people are tough, you dont argue with them unless you really had to, very few of them work, most have more kids than they can cope with, and our locals schools have been inundated with statemented children that have learning and behavioural problems, our local health centre is buckling under the weight of the influx of people,

now i know we all have to live and let live, but my question is this, what would happen if we all were like this, how in the heck would the UK cope if we all had lots of children, never worked, and drained the healthcare system dry, expected special treatment in evey aspect of our lives, and generally thought the world owed us a living???

John, What you say is true:
" don't believe the propoganda that they all get on well with each other these days 'cos that ain't the way it is.

No, quite right, they generally do not get on - maybe when people are still young, university friends, clubs, etc, but later on they stick with "their own" meaning their own class of people, specially once children come.

The point I was making about my party was that people found themselves meeting other people whom they were not likely ever to meet socially on equal terms and found that they were getting on, having fun - this to some was a great surprise and this is why this discussion on class has developed (only I think it was called something more like a background). To this day I stay in touch with some of these friends from all these spectrum of social divide - only now I lead a quiet life in the country nursing my painful body so no more parties for me - more is a shame.
Funny you mention Mrs Bucket - my fromer M-I-L was her spitting image in every way.
A nightmare - althouth unlike Mrs Bucket she was ashamed of her own father who happened to be delighful, sweet man only he had bad luck to be (as she was) from New Cross in London , she hated it when we had him to stay, as she was ashamed of him. Wrong class, you see? As far as she was concerned. But he had class, she did not!

Senna

Johnfd - I blame it on migraine head - reading and always full comprehending are fully impaired. Glad we were on the same page. I love Keeping Up Appearances and while I know there aren't any new ones coming to the States I just get a kick out of old Hyacinth. Have to tune in every Saturday night to see what she's going to do next even if it's a rerun, it just never gets old.

Theresae - the last paragraph you wrote about living on welfare and thinking that the world owes them something. We have the same problem here in the States. There is a certain class here that feels that the government should provide all of their needs and they shouldn't have to work for it. And that they are entitled to receive benefits regardless that there is no reason why they shouldn't be working. Basically they have found ways to abuse the system. Which breaks your heart when you see people out there busting their rears and need the assistance and can't get it.

I love Keeping Up Appearances and while I know there aren't any new ones coming to the States I just get a kick out of old Hyacinth. Have to tune in every Saturday night to see what she's going to do next even if it's a rerun, it just never gets old.

Sadly no more at all, anywhere. It finished in 1995. It was a good series though, and representative or some of her generation.
I think less so these days. Although did you ever get out TV series "The Good Life"? Margo was another example of social snobbery, but started from a better place.

Not heard of The Good Life. The BBC broadcasting I get is on the public television station. I don't have cable so I only see what they've picked up.

You can still catch Hiacynth B here in UK on some channels, saw and episode with her quite recently when channel hopping. So, keep trying. IT is always so good, it never ages. Just like that other favourite here, Dad's Army - do you get it in USA? We love it here, it is so old but you can watch it any time. Just like Sargeant Bilko...I still miss this dear old villain.

WE do love your comedies BTW - fantastic many of them. WE hear that the endless re-runs of Friends will be definitely coming to the end in not too distant future and they will be gone from our screens, but no doubt you will provide us with something else to smile about instead.

Senna

Theresae - yes, "that" social class is also a growing problem in the US. "They" are not necessarily the problem though. It is the government giving them everything. I think with the economy the way it is, people that were "do gooders" are seeing these people in a different light. The tax dollars they cost us are beginning to be looked at when you are for the first time having to struggle with your own bills. When heating bills in my state can run around $300/month in the winter and a neighbor is getting theirs paid in full and you are scraping by while working hard and they are sitting home, the situation is looked at entirely different. Or when you are behind a person in the checkout line at the grocery store and the person ahead of you is buying top grade meat and junk food with food stamps (paid for with your tax money) and you are trying to stretch hotdogs and macaroni to last a week, you get a little ticked off.

But like I said, it is the goverment doing this. They are the ones we should be mad at. The time of "freebies" has got to end.

I know that the underclass I talked about exists on both sides of the pond and is a drain on the resources of the state.

At the risk of outing myself as a bleeding heart social worker, I'll say again that not all of them want to be where they are and so, as like other classes, some want to move up the social ladder. The trouble is, how do you break out of this if you are the child of one of these families or come from an area where they live? They have to fight to overcome the class they're leaving behind and overcome the barriers to inclusion that understandably have grown up around them. I don't have any real answers. I'm just saying it's not always as clear cut as it appears.

I understand that but think by giving them too much is a hindrance to overcoming the odds, not a motivator. The less you have the harder you are going to want to not live that way. Who ever said any of us owe another person a living. It is time they take responsibility--hard or not. There are a lot of very hard working poor people out there.

Maybe it is because I come from the socialistic state of the US but any poor kid here can go to college for free--do you hear me? It is costing me an arm and leg to send my kids. I am poorer than the families that are getting these free rides because every penney I make is going for the stuff they are getting for nothing. Sorry, but it just doesn't sit well with the hard working middle class.

Johnfd wrote:I know that the underclass I talked about exists on both sides of the pond and is a drain on the resources of the state.

At the risk of outing myself as a bleeding heart social worker, I'll say again that not all of them want to be where they are and so, as like other classes, some want to move up the social ladder. The trouble is, how do you break out of this if you are the child of one of these families or come from an area where they live? They have to fight to overcome the class they're leaving behind and overcome the barriers to inclusion that understandably have grown up around them. I don't have any real answers. I'm just saying it's not always as clear cut as it appears.

That's very true. My roommate and her family are prime examples of this. Her mom works only when it's convenient or really has to. She has two children with mental impairments (one I know is a fetal alcohol syndrome child and the other they think is autistic) and will be satisfied to live off their SSID checks for the rest of her life. My roommate, is the most normal but has no drive to really make anything of herself and does only the bare minimum to get by. I don't know if she doesn't want to or really is clueless how to.

However, I came from a lower middle-class family. There were times that my parents didn't know how they were going to pay the bills. But they both worked and busted their behinds to do everything that the could to make those ends meet - didn't always happen. However, both my brother and I are hard workers and I have achieved a level of income with my first job that it took my mother 20 years to reach. It is possible to leave that behind and achieve more if you want it bad enough. I feel that anything is possible if you are willing to work for it. If you want it handed to you - things aren't going to change.

there will always be those who are quite happy to sit on their backsides and let someone else pay for it and some that just cant change their circumstances due to ill health or lack of support, i work in a hospital in an area, that has some of the worst dugs, and child abuse problems outside of London, i work on an all female ward, and we see young girls coming in with alsorts of female health complaints and many of them are stuck in a rut with families that have not worked for generations, who's fathers are in prison who's mothers are havin more kids at the same time as their daughters, kids in care, etc etc they have no social guidelines, rules or bounderies at all, and can barely read or write, they are babies havin babies, it is such a sad state of affairs, but whats the answer? how do you encourage change in people like this?? Would they even welcome it?